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Jan 27, 2025
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Dr. Martin Saweirs, company doctor for Cameron Mackintosh productions, discusses his unique journey into theatre medicine, balancing performer health with stage demands, and his role as Honorary Medical Advisor to the Royal Theatrical Fund, supporting those in the entertainment industry.
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Dr Martin Saweirs, Theatre Medicine, Cameron Mackintosh, Royal Theatrical Fund, West End Shows, Healthcare in Theatre
Introduction to Dr Martin Saweirs
In this episode of the Five Minute Call podcast, hosts Oren Boder and Claire Underwood welcome Dr Martin Saweirs, a distinguished member of the Royal College of General Practice. With a Bachelor of Medicine and a Bachelor of Surgery, Dr Saweirs serves as the company doctor for Cameron Mackintosh Limited's productions, among others, ensuring the health and well-being of the cast, crew, and production teams behind some of the West End's most iconic shows.
A Unique Path into Theatre
Dr Saweirs' journey into the theatre world is as unique as it is inspiring. Initially trained through the NHS and having worked as a GP for nearly a decade, Dr Saweirs ventured into private practice, which led him to a serendipitous encounter with the legendary Cameron Mackintosh. Despite not initially recognising Mackintosh's name, Dr Saweirs embraced the opportunity to become the medical guardian for his productions, a role previously held by the renowned Dr Keith for 45 years.
The Challenges and Rewards of Theatre Medicine
In his role, Dr Saweirs faces the unique challenge of balancing the performers' eagerness to return to the stage with their health needs. He describes the intense pressure performers place on themselves and the importance of advising them to rest when necessary. His approach is rooted in honesty and empathy, ensuring that performers' health is prioritised over the relentless drive of 'the show must go on.'
Lessons from a Medical Career
Dr Saweirs reflects on the parallels between medicine and theatre, particularly the performance aspect of both fields. He discusses the importance of confidence and the ability to admit uncertainty, a skill he honed over years of practice. His candidness about the challenges of making mistakes and learning from them offers a profound insight into the human side of medicine.
Contributions Beyond the Stage
Beyond his work with theatre productions, Dr Saweirs is also the Honorary Medical Advisor to the Royal Theatrical Fund, an organisation dedicated to supporting individuals in the entertainment industry who have fallen on hard times. This role allows him to extend his care and expertise beyond the immediate theatre community, highlighting his commitment to the broader arts sector.
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Oren: Hello and welcome to The Five Minute Call, the podcast that takes a deep dive into the stories of the [00:00:05] people that make theatre happen.
[00:00:06] Claire: In this episode we're talking to Dr Martin Sawiris.
[00:00:09] Oren: [00:00:10] Dr Martin is a member of the Royal College of General Practice and holds a Bachelor of Medicine and a [00:00:15] Bachelor of Surgery.
[00:00:16] Claire: He's the company doctor for Cameron McIntosh Limited's productions and [00:00:20] others, supporting the health and well being of the cast, crew and production teams [00:00:25] behind some of the West End's biggest shows.
[00:00:27] Oren: Dr Martin is also an honorary medical [00:00:30] advisor to the Royal Theatrical Fund and talks to us about life, medicine, performance, and [00:00:35] when to prioritize your health.[00:00:40] [00:00:45]
[00:00:48] Other Speakers: This is your five minute call, [00:00:50] your five minute call.
[00:00:53] Oren: Thank you genuinely for being here, um, [00:00:55] it's really exciting to talk and to understand more about you and your route into theatre [00:01:00] because we aim to explore the stories of theatre makers and [00:01:05] I think your route into theatre is really interesting and less traditional than most but I think [00:01:10] valuable nonetheless and so I wondered if you would give us a brief [00:01:15] rundown of You and your life and your experience all the [00:01:20] way through into how you get into theatre.
[00:01:23] Martin: Well, that's a great question. [00:01:25] That's a long answer, I suppose. Um, so I've been a, I've been a [00:01:30] doctor now for 15 years, which makes me feel quite old. Um, and I've been a [00:01:35] GP for coming up for 10. And, um, I initially, as everyone [00:01:40] does, they, you know, train through the NHS and, um, Uh, became an NHS [00:01:45] GP about 10 years ago.
[00:01:48] Martin: Alongside that, I started doing a little [00:01:50] bit of private GP work for myself. And gradually over the years, [00:01:55] that sort of snowballed and got busier and busier. And so my balance of work shifted slightly. [00:02:00] Um, and I think kind of naturally through that, through that line of work, you get to [00:02:05] meet a whole host of interesting, um, and, uh, [00:02:10] slightly unexpected people.
[00:02:11] Martin: And I remember I got a phone call one day. [00:02:15] Um, maybe five, six years ago from a consultant that I know [00:02:20] who said, uh, he had, um, a patient who his [00:02:25] doctor was retiring and he needed somebody to look after, [00:02:30] uh, his company and all of the things that he did. [00:02:35] And, um, I said, wow, it sounds incredible. Who's this? And he said, well, it's [00:02:40] Cameron McIntosh.
[00:02:42] Martin: I'm not sure if I should say this or not, but initially my [00:02:45] response was, I'm not sure who that is, but, uh, but, uh, Yeah, [00:02:50] no, that sounds great. Thank you. I'll look, I'll look into it. And then I Googled him. I was like, Oh, wow. Okay. I know who this guy [00:02:55] is. That's fine. Call him back. I said, yes, I'd be delighted to do that.
[00:02:59] Martin: Um, [00:03:00] and I didn't hear anything actually for months after that. I didn't hear a thing. I remember one day [00:03:05] seeing his name appear on my list. So he booked to see me. [00:03:10] And I remember calling my peer at the time going, is this actually the [00:03:15] Cameron McIntosh that's booked in? Is it him? Because if it is, he can come whenever he wants.
[00:03:18] Martin: There's no charge. He can just come in. [00:03:20] And he came in and we had a chat, uh, very informally. We just [00:03:25] talked about, you know, what it is he wanted to do and, and what it is he wanted me to do. And, um, [00:03:30] Yeah, the next, the next couple of days I was meeting his, his doctor who'd, um, the [00:03:35] sort of legendary Dr. Keith, who had done this job for 45 years.
[00:03:39] Martin: So he'd looked [00:03:40] after all the Cameron shows and, uh, kept things running for 45 years, [00:03:45] but it was time for him to retire, sadly for him, amazing guy. Um, [00:03:50] and I, through kind of chance, kind of. Got this, got this call [00:03:55] and got this, uh, got this offer.
[00:03:57] Claire: So I've immediately got a hundred questions, [00:04:00] but I'm going to force myself to just go back a little bit further.[00:04:05]
[00:04:05] Claire: Can, how do you come to be a doctor? Did you, did you want to do that your [00:04:10] whole life?
[00:04:10] Martin: Oh, well, uh, well, um, my dad was a doctor, [00:04:15] uh, and my brother and sister are actually doctors as [00:04:20] well. Um, and so growing up. It's kind of all you were surrounded by. I remember [00:04:25] kind of going on, so my dad was a care of the elderly consultant in a sort of small town in the [00:04:30] Midlands.
[00:04:30] Martin: And this was back at the time where, believe it or not, you can't imagine this now, but [00:04:35] hospital consultants used to do home visits. So I remember. Going out in the car with him, I [00:04:40] think the most exciting bit was getting to sit in the front of the car. Um, and actually going on home [00:04:45] visits with him, um, to see his patients.
[00:04:46] Martin: And I remember when I was about 13, 14 at [00:04:50] school, you get told to, you know, organize some work experience. And quite lazily, I just thought, I'll just ask my [00:04:55] dad if I can just get with him. Um, and it was, uh, just a totally eye opening experience. [00:05:00] Actually. He was, um, an unbelievable doctor, like [00:05:05] the warmth, the care, and the respect and the love he showed to his patients, families, [00:05:10] staff.
[00:05:10] Martin: Anybody he worked with was just really inspirational. Yeah. So after, [00:05:15] after doing that, I, I, I really wanted to do it. I absolutely hated medical school by the way. [00:05:20] Um, yeah, it was just, it's very prescriptive learning. It's very much, here's a [00:05:25] textbook, learn the book, not a lot of space for thought and not a lot of space [00:05:30] for actual interaction with people, which is, thank God, what I realized I actually liked after I [00:05:35] finished medical school.
[00:05:36] Martin: So, um, Yeah.
[00:05:37] Claire: And a great irony given it's a, it's a profession that it's [00:05:40] mostly going to be people facing.
[00:05:42] Martin: Yeah, and I think, um, I think when I went [00:05:45] to, when I went to medical school, that was kind of overlooked and probably before me that was overlooked. [00:05:50] Nowadays, funnily, they do do, um, a lot of kind of, uh, [00:05:55] patient interaction skills classes.
[00:05:57] Martin: And I think you can only teach that to a certain [00:06:00] extent. Um, but no, I'm, I'm delighted I made the choice and I stuck [00:06:05] out six years of medical school for it.
[00:06:07] Claire: So any interest in theatre, [00:06:10] music, anything before this? Yeah,
[00:06:12] Martin: so I've been to various like musicals, but I [00:06:15] suppose, you know, it just, it just passed me by.
[00:06:17] Martin: And, and I think when I actually realized the [00:06:20] opportunity that was upon me, I was pretty bowled over and I was like disappointed that I didn't hear anything for a few, uh, [00:06:25] for a few months afterwards. I remember calling the consultant back going, I haven't heard anything. Is everything all [00:06:30] right? And he was like, no, no, no, it's fine.
[00:06:31] Martin: He'll, he'll, he'll be in touch. He'll be in touch. And, uh, yeah, luckily he [00:06:35] was so. Sounds very reminiscent of the audition process, let's [00:06:40] be honest. Yeah. Well, I've got to admit that is kind of how I felt when he came to see [00:06:45] me, um, but no, it was, I think I was initially [00:06:50] sort of more nervous about it than when, when he actually came in and we were just talking, it was just, it seemed very normal and [00:06:55] very, very relaxed.
[00:06:56] Martin: Um, luckily we got on pretty well.
[00:06:59] Oren: How much [00:07:00] creativity is there in medicine? Because I know you said, like, you've got to learn these [00:07:05] textbooks and it's, it sort of seems like you've got to regurgitate [00:07:10] what's in those textbooks in some fashion. But is there room for you to [00:07:15] be somewhat creative with a diagnosis or an interpretation and things like [00:07:20] that?
[00:07:21] Martin: Do you know, um, I think there is. And actually, I think that's, that's, [00:07:25] like I said, one of the reasons why I really did not enjoy medical school. It was all very black and white, [00:07:30] and there's very much a, this is the right answer, this is what you do, this is the flowchart [00:07:35] you follow. But actually, being a GP and doing general practice, [00:07:40] um, well this may or may not be surprising to you, but I think about 20 [00:07:45] percent of our, all of our appointments are medically, what are called [00:07:50] medically unexplained symptoms.
[00:07:51] Martin: As in, it's very difficult to give a [00:07:55] label or a, or an exact diagnosis for what's going on. A lot of the time, [00:08:00] we know it's nothing bad. We know it's nothing sinister. And we can, we can say, like give a [00:08:05] checklist of things. Say, well, it's not anything bad because of X, Y, Z. But I can't actually tell you what it [00:08:10] is.
[00:08:10] Martin: And again, that's not something that you get. That uncertainty is not something you get taught to live with [00:08:15] at medical school. And so, so doing this job, you will see people who have, [00:08:20] you know, yes, some of the characteristics of a certain diagnosis, but not [00:08:25] others. And you have to be a little creative, I suppose, with, with, with [00:08:30] how you frame.
[00:08:31] Martin: Um, diagnoses and plans for [00:08:35] patients because no, no, no two patients are the same. So you can have two or three patients with very, very [00:08:40] similar symptoms, but they absolutely do not want a certain form of treatment [00:08:45] or somebody actually just isn't really bothered about it at all. They just want to know it's not something [00:08:50] else.
[00:08:50] Martin: And so you have to try and be understanding of what that person wants [00:08:55] and, and actually what they need. Um, so yeah, I think there's, there's plenty of room for [00:09:00] creativity, thankfully.
[00:09:02] Oren: That's so interesting.
[00:09:03] Claire: It's amazing.
[00:09:04] Oren: I mean, I've been to my [00:09:05] fair share of appointments in my time. From the patient's perspective, you do feel very much like [00:09:10] you go in, you kind of regurgitate a bunch of things that you've been [00:09:15] experiencing over the last, you know, week, two weeks, whatever it is.
[00:09:18] Oren: You sort of get this kind of [00:09:20] vague umbrella thing back, and then you're like, okay, well, great. What do I do with this [00:09:25] information? But I think from, from what you're saying, it's, It's almost nicer to know, [00:09:30] actually, that sometimes there is not an answer, and that's not a bad [00:09:35] thing.
[00:09:35] Martin: Again, that's something that took me years to actually [00:09:40] be comfortable saying and not sounding like a moron.
[00:09:44] Martin: Yeah. [00:09:45] Because, well, I think there is this expectation that when you go and see a doctor, they'll know the [00:09:50] answer. Well, sometimes there's that expectation. Sometimes people think their doctors are idiots. But, [00:09:55] um, you know, there's this, there's this kind of expectation. Um, unwritten, [00:10:00] uh, expectation that, you know, I'll go and see them.
[00:10:03] Martin: I'll tell them all my symptoms and they'll say, [00:10:05] well, this is the problem. And actually quite a lot of the time, we [00:10:10] don't know exactly what the problem is. And to be able to say that to [00:10:15] someone and be honest about that. Without sounding stupid, [00:10:20] it's quite difficult. And I don't, I don't think a lot of doctors do that very well.
[00:10:24] Martin: And, [00:10:25] and I think that in itself generates frustration. Because I think it, people aren't [00:10:30] stupid. It can quite easily come across when somebody doesn't know. [00:10:35] What they're talking about, but are trying to fob you off with something [00:10:40] and people see through that. And actually, I think you get people on a much better footing [00:10:45] and you gain a lot more respect by actually being honest and saying, well, look, you've told [00:10:50] me this, this, and this let's talk through the things it could be.
[00:10:52] Martin: I don't think it's this. I don't think it's this. It [00:10:55] could be this, but I'm not entirely sure. I think that means a lot more to people, [00:11:00] personally anyway. I think I'd prefer to have that kind of honest and open, um, discussion with [00:11:05] somebody I went to see, like if I went to see my dentist, um, which I know nothing about.
[00:11:09] Martin: [00:11:10] I'd be glad to have that conversation and not be told, yeah, yeah, you just need a crown.
[00:11:14] Oren: [00:11:15] Do you think that's easier with somebody of equal professional status, [00:11:20] if you should, I mean, those kind of conversations easier to have?
[00:11:23] Martin: Actually, no, I think they're hard. I think they're [00:11:25] harder. Interesting. I think they're a lot harder.
[00:11:26] Martin: So when, when I see, for instance, if I see other doctors,
[00:11:29] Other Speakers: [00:11:30] yeah,
[00:11:30] Martin: probably the most stressful, uh, consultation I'll have, because in [00:11:35] my head, I think this person's a doctor. They kind of know exactly what I know pretty much, but they've [00:11:40] come to see me asking for my opinion and I actually find it a lot harder and [00:11:45] I actually end up apologizing a lot more to doctors.
[00:11:47] Martin: I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing because I'm trying [00:11:50] to treat them as if I would treat any other patient. Because ultimately, you know, like I think if [00:11:55] I went to see another doctor, I don't want to be, I don't want my knowledge taken [00:12:00] for granted or assume that I know something. I would quite like them to just.
[00:12:03] Martin: flat out explain to me what [00:12:05] they think and why they think it. So I try and reciprocate that to other doctors. So actually there's a lot [00:12:10] more thought process involved when I see people of, uh, of, of, [00:12:15] well, in the same profession as me. It's quite stressful.
[00:12:17] Claire: Is there an element [00:12:20] of confidence? building that you have to learn becoming a doctor?
[00:12:24] Martin: [00:12:25] Yeah, massively, massively. I think so. My very first year of work was a [00:12:30] total, a total shock to my system because you're, you, you, you train for six [00:12:35] years, you learn all this horrendous textbook stuff. Well, they probably don't have textbooks anymore. [00:12:40] Um, and, uh, and then you get dropped into work. And [00:12:45] basically you are a glorified secretary for your first year.
[00:12:48] Martin: And all you do is, [00:12:50] Again, write, write the notes so you follow, you scurry around after the consultant trying to write [00:12:55] down everything they've said and your job is essentially, you know, go and order that scan, go and [00:13:00] chase that person, go to the lab and ask why this blood test hasn't been done, go and take blood from that person.
[00:13:04] Martin: You don't [00:13:05] actually do a lot of, um, decision making. [00:13:10] Um, you don't do a lot of significant substance, I would [00:13:15] say, and that makes the second year even harder because the second year is where you're suddenly expected to do a lot [00:13:20] more stuff, or at least it was the case for me. So I found that really, really difficult.
[00:13:23] Martin: And, you know, with [00:13:25] reflection, I don't think I was a particularly good doctor at that time because [00:13:30] it was just all so, um, intense and new. There's this [00:13:35] real big step up between the first and second year. Well, there was for me, at least, where [00:13:40] there was this expectation that. Oh, this person will sort out the blue [00:13:45] light ambulance call who's coming at two in the morning, um, on their own with, you know, two or three nurses [00:13:50] helping them and, and you're 24, 25 at the time thinking, Oh my [00:13:55] God, what is happening?
[00:13:57] Martin: Um, so yeah, there's a significant [00:14:00] degree of confidence building kind of from, from one year to the next. But I think as you get more [00:14:05] used to it and as you, as you are in that situation more and more, [00:14:10] it does become. slightly easier to be in those high pressure situations. [00:14:15] Although now I look back and that was 12, 13 years ago.
[00:14:17] Martin: And I think I could not do that now because [00:14:20] I've, I've gotten used to being a GP. Um, but the pressure is, is different now. There [00:14:25] aren't the split second life and death decisions for me, but there are, you know, [00:14:30] a few thousand patients who kind of. I hope will depend [00:14:35] on me to make the right decisions about how to guide their care and what [00:14:40] tests to send them for and what I think.
[00:14:42] Martin: So that, that pressure is, is maybe not [00:14:45] as acute, but it's. It certainly weighs heavy on my shoulders. I
[00:14:49] Oren: was going to [00:14:50] say, on a similar vein, it feels like there's a lot of performance that goes into that. Yep. Exactly [00:14:55] what I was
[00:14:56] Other Speakers: about to
[00:14:56] Oren: say. It feels as though there are [00:15:00] certain aspects to this that obviously are patient facing, that if [00:15:05] you truly showed how you felt would be not a beneficial [00:15:10] thing to them, if you see what I mean?
[00:15:10] Claire: You know, I'm not for a second suggesting that in musical theatre we are saving lives, because [00:15:15] we're not. But. I'd probably, I'd probably disagree
[00:15:18] Martin: there. You know, the, the joy [00:15:20] that you guys bring to people. Well, I
[00:15:22] Claire: think it's significant. It's massive. Yes.
[00:15:24] Martin: Um, [00:15:25]
[00:15:25] Claire: but it's not quite on the same, we're not quite in the same place.
[00:15:29] Claire: Yeah. [00:15:30] But definitely what you're describing is something [00:15:35] that all the performers I work with experience. The, [00:15:40] the kind of the blue light flashing is. You know, you've got to walk out on that stage and there's [00:15:45] 2000 people out there and you've got to entertain them and you've got to be good at it and learning [00:15:50] to live with that pressure and, you know, we've spoken to other performers on the podcast [00:15:55] about how, how you live with making mistakes, how you live with, that wasn't your [00:16:00] best show.
[00:16:00] Claire: That wasn't my best day. How do you learn to live with that as a doctor?
[00:16:04] Martin: Yeah, it's, you know, it's [00:16:05] really, really hard, you know, I think. It's not helped by the fact that, [00:16:10] again, I think the perception is that doctors should often be infallible and not make mistakes. I [00:16:15] mean, that's kind of ridiculous. We all make mistakes.
[00:16:18] Martin: We all, we'll all screw [00:16:20] things up, whether they're big things or little things. I've made plenty of mistakes. [00:16:25] Um, and Luckily, I haven't made any big ones for a while, but, [00:16:30] um, I think, uh, you know, I, it sounds maybe this sounds a bit [00:16:35] morose actually, but I, I often find myself wondering [00:16:40] on balance, you know, how many good things have I done, [00:16:45] which have potentially extended somebody's life to the balance of [00:16:50] how many mistakes have I made, which may be unbeknownst to me, completely unbeknownst to me, which have actually [00:16:55] been detrimental to people's lives.
[00:16:57] Martin: And that's, it's a question I'll never be able to answer. [00:17:00] Um, but it does often like play on my mind, you know, because I think it's [00:17:05] easy for us to think that all of the interventions we're making are for the [00:17:10] positives and for the, for the benefit of the patient. But actually sometimes you write a prescription, [00:17:15] maybe you shouldn't have given them a prescription.
[00:17:17] Martin: Maybe you shouldn't have done something, maybe you should have done something totally [00:17:20] different. There is this kind of. I think some doctors feel this [00:17:25] pressure to do something because it's somebody sitting there in front of you and [00:17:30] they are kind of implicitly asking you to do something. So you feel this pressure to.
[00:17:34] Martin: [00:17:35] Give them a prescription, send them for a test, um, you [00:17:40] know, suggest, uh, some kind of intervention. And that's not always the right [00:17:45] thing to do. Sometimes the right thing to do is to just sit and talk to them and try and understand what the [00:17:50] problem is. And to try and reassure them that actually, this is fine, [00:17:55] this will go away.
[00:17:56] Martin: You don't need anything that's really hard to [00:18:00] say and really hard to do, but I suppose that that confidence kind of comes with time that hasn't [00:18:05] really answered your question at all. Your question was more about how do you, how'd you learn to live with mistakes?
[00:18:09] Claire: It's [00:18:10] fascinating. I guess what I derive from what you've said is you, you learn to look at both [00:18:15] sides of the coin.
[00:18:15] Claire: Like, yes, some things might not have been my best day. They might, I might not have given the [00:18:20] best advice that day, but on the other side of that. I've done good as [00:18:25] well.
[00:18:25] Martin: Yeah, I think, I think that's, that's a way to sort of bring comfort [00:18:30] to my, to myself at times. I think personally, the mistakes I've, I've made.[00:18:35]
[00:18:35] Martin: You know, it sounds very cliche, but actually just owning [00:18:40] up to them and being really honest with patients. Because going back to the, you [00:18:45] know, the guy who's trying to bluster his way through, that's very obvious. And when you have made a [00:18:50] mistake, that's the last thing people want to hear. And it's hard to say, [00:18:55] um, apologize and hold your hands up and take responsibility for something which has [00:19:00] a potentially, you know.
[00:19:02] Martin: life changing outcome. But, um, [00:19:05] but really it's, it's, it's the only way out of that situation and to try and make amends, [00:19:10] I find.
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[00:19:34] Oren: [00:19:35] This is probably a really hard thing to try and answer, but I'm asking [00:19:40] it from the perspective of a patient. Is there anything you could, you, you would [00:19:45] want your patients to do to help in that process?
[00:19:47] Oren: Like, because I know it's very [00:19:50] easy to accept advice. Yeah, and then continue [00:19:55] with that advice regardless of if other signs are pointing you as a patient [00:20:00] another way. But I always feel so bad if I was to ring up and say, Hey, I don't think this is [00:20:05] working, or, you know, something has changed. I just feel like I'm wasting somebody's time because the advice that I've been [00:20:10] given, I feel like is gospel.
[00:20:11] Oren: So is there something you would like your pa, a patient to do [00:20:15] in that kind of situation?
[00:20:17] Martin: Yeah. I mean, kind of almost the opposite [00:20:20] of what you do, but, but I suppose I try and I try and get [00:20:25] across to people that, again, it's this, it's this fine line. I feel like I try and tell where [00:20:30] I, I want to be reassuring and confident, but I don't want people to think that [00:20:35] what I say absolutely goes and I'm absolutely right about everything because I won't be, um, [00:20:40] there'll be loads of things that I will get it.
[00:20:41] Martin: wrong or won't quite get right. And so, you [00:20:45] know, I'll often say to people that this is what I think is the problem. This is the way I think it should [00:20:50] go and how I think you should get better over the next few days, weeks, months, whatever. [00:20:55] Um, but if that's not happening. Please let me know. Please come [00:21:00] back.
[00:21:00] Martin: Don't suffer in silence. And some people do. Some people have taken months to come in in the first place because they've ignored [00:21:05] something for ages. And so the very last thing you want is them to do the same thing again for months when they're [00:21:10] not getting better. So I think it's just about almost [00:21:15] admitting that fallibility and trying to be honest with patients and say, [00:21:20] look, this is where I think we are.
[00:21:22] Martin: This is how it should go. If it's not please come back and let me [00:21:25] know. It's not wasting my time at all. I'd rather know. Probably wasted like a year down the [00:21:30] line when something worse had happened. So I'd rather know sooner than later.
[00:21:34] Oren: Yeah. [00:21:35] That's so, so interesting. My whole perception of the [00:21:40] medical profession is slowly changing.
[00:21:43] Oren: Probably for the better. [00:21:45] Let's cancel the rest of
[00:21:48] Claire: the [00:21:50] day. So I wonder about communities. I'm hearing you talk about [00:21:55] you know, the pressures of being a doctor and how you manage that. My answer to that [00:22:00] in, in the musical theater world is create community, allow people to talk to one another about [00:22:05] how their challenges and how they get over those.
[00:22:08] Claire: Do you have community [00:22:10] in the medical world? Like that you can share those thoughts with?
[00:22:13] Martin: Yeah. So, I mean, I, [00:22:15] I recently kind of. move clinics and expanded slightly. So there's now a [00:22:20] group of us GPs that work in the same clinic, which is lovely. So I've worked on my own for [00:22:25] about eight years, which has its, has its significant positives, but also has its [00:22:30] drawbacks in that it's quite.
[00:22:31] Martin: isolating. Um, and so from a, from a kind of a [00:22:35] doctor's perspective, it's really, really nice to be able to kind of bounce ideas off the people who [00:22:40] are in the room next door, downstairs, wherever, and come with a different perspective or a different [00:22:45] plan of action. Um, I find it really helpful. I know the, the guys [00:22:50] who work with me also find it helpful because I've I've obviously looked after the, the shows now for maybe [00:22:55] five, five years.
[00:22:56] Martin: Um, so when they see the performers, it's a slightly different, [00:23:00] it's always a slightly different dynamic because of the, there's this [00:23:05] conflicting pressure that's upon us as doctors seeing performers in shows. [00:23:10] And it is, it's a very interesting dynamic because I think [00:23:15] the perception would be that. Um, and actually, you know, even [00:23:20] from some of the performers, because they've never had it, they've never worked for a company where they have their own [00:23:25] doctor.
[00:23:25] Martin: And so I think sometimes they're a little wary of us because they think [00:23:30] that our allegiance lies with the company to try and just basically do whatever [00:23:35] we can to get them back on stage as soon as, as soon as they can. Like we're, you know, don't [00:23:40] pick them or something, but that's absolutely not the case.
[00:23:43] Martin: I mean, I've, I've never. [00:23:45] I've, well, I've, I work with a couple of companies, not in theater, [00:23:50] who have a similar mindset, which is actually, it's the employees or the [00:23:55] performers that they're bothered about. It's not. You know, um, [00:24:00] getting them back out there as soon as they can is they want their workforce and their staff to be [00:24:05] healthy and functioning to the best of their ability.
[00:24:07] Martin: And so there's, there [00:24:10] can be, especially with the sort of the new adopters, this feeling that they have to kind of do something [00:24:15] for them. But actually it's, it's, it's the performer's health and [00:24:20] wellbeing that is our paramount priority. Um, you know, if we were to do something to [00:24:25] try and rush them back or get them back sooner than they could get back, that's only going to end [00:24:30] in tears for everyone.
[00:24:30] Martin: You know, they'll, they'll, they'll kind of, something else will happen and they'll be off [00:24:35] for even longer. So yeah, no, it's an interesting balance that we strike, but. [00:24:40] You know, I think it's, it's really important for, for those guys to know that they're the ones that are [00:24:45] the important one.
[00:24:46] Claire: So what was the brief when Cameron came to see you?
[00:24:48] Claire: How did he lay out the [00:24:50] brief?
[00:24:50] Martin: Well, he just said, so he's like, Dr. Keith's looked after my shows for 45 years. [00:24:55] Um, I mean, he, he's an incredible guy and he, he retired when he got to the [00:25:00] age of 80. Um, yeah, I, I, I can't imagine doing a. [00:25:05] Uh, a job like this for 45 years. I mean, I could just about eke it out to 80.
[00:25:08] Martin: So we'll see if I get there. [00:25:10] Um, but, um, no, he explained that obviously the shows [00:25:15] he looks after, he'd like, uh, a doctor to be able to see performance, see [00:25:20] staff. Basically see anybody who was unwell and needed to see me [00:25:25] or my team, um, to just try and keep them fit and healthy. And I thought [00:25:30] that was a fantastic opportunity.
[00:25:33] Claire: Were you flying solo at that [00:25:35] point? Has your team happened since then?
[00:25:36] Martin: Yeah, no, no. So I was on my own then. So, um, that was back in, I [00:25:40] think 2018, 2019. And my, my team [00:25:45] sort of started with me last year. So I had a good sort of four, four years of doing that on [00:25:50] my own.
[00:25:50] Claire: Wow. Was that daunting?
[00:25:51] Martin: Slightly. Um, slightly, but you [00:25:55] know, in many ways it was actually really, really exciting.
[00:25:57] Martin: And the theatres, Cameron shows are probably [00:26:00] the most fun and the best part of my job that the people you meet are just brilliant. [00:26:05] And it's a real, it's again, I know this [00:26:10] might sound cliche, but it is a real sense of kind of family. I think at least for my. [00:26:15] My slightly sort of detached outside view, you know, when the company managers call, you know, they're not [00:26:20] calling for fun, they're calling because there's something wrong.
[00:26:22] Martin: And actually it's really, really nice to [00:26:25] get a phone call from them and to be able to do something about it. Um, so yeah, it was daunting at [00:26:30] first, but, um, yeah, I absolutely love it. It's a, it's the best part of my [00:26:35] job.
[00:26:35] Claire: So you, you touched on this already a little bit, but I wonder if you could. Talk a little bit [00:26:40] about how does this work differ from your [00:26:45] standard GP work?
[00:26:47] Claire: Are performers a different breed? [00:26:50]
[00:26:51] Martin: Slightly, yes. Um, so I suppose the first [00:26:55] thing is a lot of GP stuff is, is usually quite last minute anyway. Um, [00:27:00] so just as an aside, that's a very. It took me many, many [00:27:05] years to get comfortable with running a business without more than one or two days of diary [00:27:10] being full in the future.
[00:27:12] Martin: That in itself is [00:27:15] slightly anxiety inducing, but I've gotten used to that, dealing with that uncertainty, [00:27:20] but performers are often even more short notice. For instance, in the last kind of [00:27:25] few, the last couple of weeks, actually, um, Not from Cameron shows, but [00:27:30] from other shows. So I think company managers over the years have sort of just spread my name around.
[00:27:34] Martin: And so [00:27:35] there's a few other shows who have got in touch with us to say, uh, we've [00:27:40] got an opening night tonight and so and so has done something. [00:27:45] Um, I think someone had something stuck in their ear. Which is not great. Um, [00:27:50] but, you know, it's, um, [00:27:55] that's, you know, that's, it's, it's exciting to be able to help.
[00:27:57] Martin: And even if I can't help, I know someone who [00:28:00] can, and so you can kind of get that sorted out for them. And, you know, you're kind of. [00:28:05] safe in the knowledge that you've maybe done a little part to help that opening night go ahead where the [00:28:10] guy can actually hear what he's singing, hear what's going through his ear.
[00:28:14] Claire: [00:28:15] Yes.
[00:28:15] Martin: Um, but I think, I think performers, [00:28:20] um, they put an incredible amount of pressure on themselves. And [00:28:25] that's at any, at any level of, of performer. It's not just the leading guys and [00:28:30] ladies. It's um, it's obvious how much pressure they put [00:28:35] upon themselves. And actually this kind of comes back to what I was saying about sometimes the [00:28:40] presumption is that we just want to get them back out on stage.
[00:28:43] Martin: Actually, sometimes. They are [00:28:45] so desperate to get back out on stage and quite a lot of the time they are desperate that they will almost [00:28:50] go too far and want to do too much to get back out there. [00:28:55] And that's really, that's a really hard conversation. So it's a real sort of [00:29:00] role reversal in a way, because you're saying, well, actually, I don't think you should go on.
[00:29:04] Martin: And [00:29:05] actually, if you do, you'll end up screwing things up for longer and you'll be off for even longer. And that's [00:29:10] really, really hard to say that. I mean, I. I, I said that to [00:29:15] one of the sort of more senior ladies in a show, um, a couple of years [00:29:20] ago. I was heartbroken. I felt like I'd just, you know, kick my grandmother's cat or something.[00:29:25]
[00:29:25] Martin: She um, she was nearly in tears looking at me telling me that she couldn't, you know, but why [00:29:30] can't I go on? I'm like, I'm so sorry. It just, it just wouldn't [00:29:35] be right if something were to happen out on stage, it just would not be [00:29:40] worth it. It's, it's one night, it's two nights, please take my advice. [00:29:45] And actually, yeah, I don't, I don't know many professions [00:29:50] where people are so desperate to get back to work as they are in, you know, performing arts.[00:29:55]
[00:29:55] Oren: How much of it is purely advisory? Like, do you then have to go and [00:30:00] feed back to the production? And then do they make an executive decision? Or can the [00:30:05] performer overrule the decision? Not that they should.
[00:30:08] Martin: That's a really good, that's a really [00:30:10] good question, actually. So, um, so I'm obviously bound by confidentiality to the [00:30:15] person who's seeing me.
[00:30:16] Martin: And so occasionally the show shows will say, well, can you give us an update? [00:30:20] First thing, obviously, I have to get the performers permission for that, and I feel like I [00:30:25] should make that quite clear because I think sometimes a lot of the performers think that because I'm, you know, [00:30:30] they're, they're paying me, like, just go and tell them whatever, which is not the case.
[00:30:33] Martin: That's, there's a [00:30:35] Hippocratic Oath, that small matter, that small thing. Um, so, [00:30:40] uh, so that's the, that's the first thing to say, um, invariably the performers are [00:30:45] always absolutely happy for me to go back and talk to the show and [00:30:50] yeah, where does the final decision lie? So quite a lot of the time you'll [00:30:55] be in this position where, and this I suppose comes back to the dealing with uncertainty, [00:31:00] it could go either way.
[00:31:00] Martin: And you think, well, actually you could be fine if you go on stage, or you might get a little bit worse if you [00:31:05] went back on. And sometimes I'll just, we'll sort of have a discussion as a [00:31:10] group and come to a decision and say, I think they'll be okay. Can they just, let's say it's a two show [00:31:15] day, let's say, do the matinee, see how you feel.
[00:31:18] Martin: If you feel rubbish after that, [00:31:20] don't do the evening show. So sometimes there's a bit of compromise. [00:31:25] Sometimes I will just say to them, look, I don't think this is a good idea. [00:31:30] Um, I can't. Stop them, but usually that does stop [00:31:35] them because I think it would be pretty foolish to go against [00:31:40] like me directly saying, I think it's a bad idea.
[00:31:43] Martin: So sometimes there's [00:31:45] a kind of group discussion. Sometimes it will just come from me.
[00:31:49] Claire: And I think that [00:31:50] voice that you've, you find heartbreaking to deliver that voice [00:31:55] of this isn't a good idea. Sit down, take a break, [00:32:00] wait until you're well is. a really important voice. It's a, [00:32:05] because, because not necessarily because there is pressure [00:32:10] from producers or anything else.
[00:32:11] Claire: Cause I, I don't think that is the case, particularly at CML, [00:32:15] but there is an inbuilt pressure. We've all inherited this, the show must go on [00:32:20] thing. And there's the inbuilt pressure through studying, like, keep going, keep going [00:32:25] do. So actually to have somebody come out and say, [00:32:30] It's not a good idea. Is it sometimes I think probably a huge relief to [00:32:35] have somebody to take that role because you're always as a performer, you're always going, could [00:32:40] I, could I, could I have just gone a little bit further?
[00:32:44] Claire: Yeah. [00:32:45] You know, so I think it's, I think when, when you or when [00:32:50] Aaron and I say to somebody. Do you know what? I really think you should take a rest. [00:32:55] There is quite often a little glimmer of [00:33:00] relief in the eyes. It's like somebody's taken this out of my hands. I don't need to wrangle it anymore.
[00:33:03] Martin: Completely. I think it [00:33:05] takes the pressure off them and it's a pressure they don't need.
[00:33:07] Martin: They're under enough pressure. Right. Yeah. You've got enough stuff to deal [00:33:10] with. Um, so, you know, trying to be kind of decisive about that for, for, for [00:33:15] them when, when it needs to be. When that decision needs to be made is, is I think a [00:33:20] really important part of the job. Ultimately, you know, it's not, if I said to everyone, well, you decide if [00:33:25] you can go on, what's the point in having me?
[00:33:26] Martin: It needs some actual direction. [00:33:30] So no, I think it's a really important part of the job.
[00:33:34] Claire: [00:33:35] So, you know, taking, seeing that somebody is [00:33:40] actually not really in a fit state to make a good decision is sometimes that's quite an easy one from the [00:33:45] outside to go. I think so.
[00:33:47] Oren: We'll get back to the episode in just a minute, but I just [00:33:50] wanted to quickly say that 75 percent of you are not subscribed to this channel.
[00:33:54] Oren: [00:33:55] So if you could hit that subscribe button, like this video and ding the bell for notifications so you [00:34:00] never miss an episode in the future.
[00:34:03] Claire: I have another question, which is [00:34:05] relates back to you saying. You know, you feel you want to do something because people come [00:34:10] expecting a fix. Yeah. [00:34:15] Do you think that that's a perception of medicine in [00:34:20] general, that we are Lego bricks that can be [00:34:25] put back together?
[00:34:28] Martin: I think, [00:34:30] interestingly, um, what's happened over the last few years with [00:34:35] COVID, um, has maybe [00:34:40] changed what I feel is that perception. And I say that [00:34:45] because We'll all know people who have [00:34:50] hugely varied symptoms of COVID and [00:34:55] long lasting after effects from COVID. And I think [00:35:00] it's become pretty obvious that we can't explain exactly why.[00:35:05]
[00:35:05] Martin: And so I think that kind of uncertainty on such a big [00:35:10] scale has slightly changed or made it maybe easier. Well, maybe I'm [00:35:15] overthinking it, but I feel like it's kind of made it slightly easier for us as a profession to say, well, [00:35:20] it's very clear you've got these symptoms, but we don't know why. So we [00:35:25] can't give you a direct quick fix.
[00:35:28] Martin: I think there is. [00:35:30] often still this expectation that something will be done. [00:35:35] Why would you come and see a doctor if you didn't have that expectation that they'd at least know or [00:35:40] want to do something? Um, but I think if you're, if you're [00:35:45] open about possibilities and treatment plans and [00:35:50] options available, I think people respond to that uncertainty much better.
[00:35:54] Martin: Again, I [00:35:55] think if you give somebody options. And you say, these are the [00:36:00] three, four things that we could do for this. Let's talk through them [00:36:05] and let's try and understand which one you think might be best. That's not putting the ball back in your [00:36:10] court as a patient saying, well, here, here's your choices.
[00:36:12] Martin: Decide what you want to do. Pick one. Um, [00:36:15] it's more, uh, let's talk through it and see what will work best for you or what, what I think will work best [00:36:20] for you as well. Because again, again, ultimately you need some professional input and you need [00:36:25] some opinion as to what you think would be the best thing to do.
[00:36:27] Martin: It's no good being told, well, Aaron, [00:36:30] here's four options. It's up to you. You'd probably want to know, well, which one would you do? [00:36:35] And that's actually the way I, I usually, Approach it. And I often say this to [00:36:40] patients. I'll say, well, these are the options. If it were me, if it were my wife, if it were my mum, my dad, my [00:36:45] kids, this is what I'd do.
[00:36:47] Martin: Um, and I think that holds a lot of weight with [00:36:50] people. Because ultimately, why would you treat someone in a different way, you'd want to be [00:36:55] treated yourself.
[00:36:56] Claire: I think that's very, very powerful. Um, I mean, [00:37:00] I know just in my own family story that getting some of the [00:37:05] consultants to do that, to say that this is what I would [00:37:10] do has at times been really tricky.
[00:37:13] Claire: And we understand [00:37:15] the reasons why they might not want to. To urge you in one direction [00:37:20] or another, but it is completely bewildering when you're as the patient, you're in a [00:37:25] position evaluating things you've never thought about before, never that you've [00:37:30] never come across. So,
[00:37:31] Martin: and look, as, um, I think doctors often get so [00:37:35] blind blinkered and, um, used to seeing things from their side of the table.
[00:37:38] Martin: Um, [00:37:40] it's a slightly personal example. So apologies. My, um, my, [00:37:45] my father, actually, he passed away in August of last year. And, um, He, uh, he [00:37:50] had pancreatic cancer and I, he didn't, he'd done incredibly [00:37:55] well. And, um, it just so happened that my, my brother who lives in New Zealand was [00:38:00] over in the UK for a wedding, just happened to be here.
[00:38:03] Martin: And he, he, [00:38:05] he sort of took a final turn for the worst and he'd stayed at home the entire time and was [00:38:10] doing pretty well. And I remember we were all in the hospital and my dad had always said, [00:38:15] and this was the hospital, bear in mind, he used to work in, he worked in this hospital for 30 years. [00:38:20] And he'd always said.
[00:38:21] Martin: I don't want to die in a hospital. I don't want to die in a hospital. I want to die home. [00:38:25] I remember sitting in a relative's room with my mum, uh, my brother and my sister and the [00:38:30] palliative care consultant. And you know, I, I, I, [00:38:35] it's, it's a, it's a hard example, but it's, it's an example I think of as, as a, [00:38:40] as someone to take a great amount of, um, [00:38:45] influence from.
[00:38:48] Martin: She just, [00:38:50] Straight up asked my mum, Samuel, [00:38:55] will you be able to stay in that house after if he dies at [00:39:00] home? Is that what you're worried about? Because I've only been quite quiet through this whole conversation. [00:39:05] And I stupidly, about two minutes earlier had said, well, no, we have to take him home because [00:39:10] that's what he wanted.
[00:39:11] Martin: That's what he wanted. She came out and said that. And I just suddenly. [00:39:15] Felt awful for, for, for, for, for saying that I was [00:39:20] constantly thinking about his wishes, which is understandably what you do, but you don't think about the other [00:39:25] side of that interaction. And um, I think, you know, [00:39:30] saying, I'm using this as an example of.
[00:39:32] Martin: Coming out with very kind of [00:39:35] clear, um, but difficult communication. And I [00:39:40] thought the way she did it was unbelievable. It was so, so [00:39:45] inspirational. Um, and that's something I try and try and kind of incorporate [00:39:50] into my own sort of day to day work now. You know, trying to be [00:39:55] really kind of honest and clear with patients about what are the, what are the pros and cons about what's [00:40:00] ahead.
[00:40:00] Martin: Not just for you, but for everyone else around you. It's hard.
[00:40:03] Claire: What's so lovely about that [00:40:05] interaction is she put the decision in your mum's hands, but she gave her space [00:40:10] to say the thing that might not have been popular in the room.
[00:40:13] Martin: Completely. That's [00:40:15] really beautiful. She
[00:40:15] Claire: didn't come out and say, if I were you, this is what I'd do, but she gave her space for it.
[00:40:19] Claire: [00:40:20] And I think that's a really key part that certainly chimes [00:40:25] hugely with the work I do, giving people space to make their own decisions [00:40:30] about.
[00:40:30] Oren: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a nice psychology here as well, because ultimately. [00:40:35] You're sort of saying what, what the outcome should be, but you're giving [00:40:40] the, um, You're almost giving permission.
[00:40:42] Oren: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. [00:40:45] And I think that's so powerful because as soon as somebody says it for themselves and takes [00:40:50] ownership of that, there's a huge array of connected [00:40:55] things. Yeah, I, I, that's, you're right. It's
[00:40:59] Martin: [00:41:00] very inspirational. Yeah, it really is. And you know, when I see People now who [00:41:05] have, you know, they're diagnosed with, with cancers and things, again, the, the, I think [00:41:10] a lot of people's instincts is to do everything they can, treat it in every which way they can.[00:41:15]
[00:41:15] Martin: Actually, that's not always the right thing to do. Um, you know, there are some [00:41:20] things where you, you could aggressively treat it with chemotherapy. But you'll be completely wiped [00:41:25] out, feel abysmal, it might extend your life by four weeks. What's the point? But it's [00:41:30] hard to say that. It's really hard to say that as a doctor.
[00:41:32] Martin: You, you'd expect to be pushing, uh, [00:41:35] treatments on people and, and, and trying to do everything you can for somebody when actually [00:41:40] it's not always the right thing to do. Um, and I [00:41:45] suppose that that translates back to, back to the, you know, the performance at the theater. Sometimes [00:41:50] it is the right thing to do to have a course of antibiotics for something, but sometimes, you [00:41:55] know, it's not going to make any difference.
[00:41:56] Martin: And saying that to them is hard because they're [00:42:00] desperate to get back out there, they're desperate to do something. Um, you know, saying, [00:42:05] have some Manuka honey and some lemon probably doesn't sound that insightful. Um, but sometimes [00:42:10] it's the best thing.
[00:42:12] Oren: We're sort of coming from the perspective of somebody has [00:42:15] something wrong with them already and you're treating that.
[00:42:17] Other Speakers: Yeah.
[00:42:18] Oren: But are there things that [00:42:20] singers and performers can do, not necessarily as preventatives, but things to help keep [00:42:25] just greater, you know, Overall health to prevent the comments, I [00:42:30] mean, you're not going to do anything if you sprain an ankle, you know what I mean, but like the common stuff, like, I always say to all of the singers that [00:42:35] I work with, if you're coming, if you're traveling by train, still wear a mask, especially with the [00:42:40] pollutants in the underground, like, so are there Do you have any advice or tips or [00:42:45] things for people to
[00:42:46] Martin: do?
[00:42:47] Martin: So I love seeing people with the huge bottles of [00:42:50] water. It's like gigantic bottles of water, which are marked out by hour of the day. With little [00:42:55] inspirational messages next to them, next to them. They're great. If people could, if people can [00:43:00] somehow manage to drink two and a half, three liters of water a day, fantastic.
[00:43:03] Martin: Might not be so great when you're on stage and you need the [00:43:05] toilet, but that will help, you know, just basic things like, so vitamin D is a [00:43:10] great example. You can buy vitamin D. Um, over the counter in all sorts of [00:43:15] different strengths, all sorts of different forms. And it's funny because the, [00:43:20] the, the sort of most commonly available strength, I think is 400 units.[00:43:25]
[00:43:25] Martin: Um, I have pretty much stopped bothering people take that. [00:43:30] And I'm essentially suggest to people to take between two and 4, 000. [00:43:35] Well, it's quite hard to overdose on vitamin D. He says conscious that he's about to go on a podcast, [00:43:40] but, um, this is not medical advice. I'm not a doctor,
[00:43:44] Other Speakers: [00:43:45] um,
[00:43:46] Martin: so, um, yeah, [00:43:50] no, I had for, for especially in the UK, um, if you are of a, [00:43:55] anything other than a Celtic skin tone, you're going to really struggle to, to.[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Martin: overdose on vitamin D because the sunlight intensity is just so [00:44:05] poor. Um, so I see people who've been taking 2000 units a day and their vitamin [00:44:10] D levels are still kind of right at the rock bottom end of normal. They're within normal, which is better than a lot [00:44:15] of people, but you could take loads more and that's great for your immune system, just your general kind of [00:44:20] ability to fend off all of these coughs, colds, bugs that people will come across.
[00:44:24] Martin: So that's [00:44:25] a really simple and easy one. The same with vitamin B complex, that helps people a lot [00:44:30] as well. So taking those two supplements, and I know supplements, it's [00:44:35] a, how long is a piece of string? I've just written down, how do you
[00:44:38] Claire: decide from all the choices [00:44:40] available? Yeah,
[00:44:42] Martin: I'm not, I'm not paid by any brand, [00:44:45] but honestly, I think for me personally, those are the two things that I'd probably suggest people take.[00:44:50]
[00:44:50] Martin: Anything else is a bonus. If you want to fill up your dosset box, like [00:44:55] a 90 year old in a nursing home, go for it. But, uh, uh, I think those are the two very [00:45:00] reasonable things to take and drinking a ton of water.
[00:45:03] Claire: Is there anything about the [00:45:05] lifestyle of performers that you think is
[00:45:08] Martin: good? [00:45:10] Detrimental? I mean, the hours are brutal, but I don't, I [00:45:15] don't.
[00:45:15] Martin: I don't know how you would change those. Um, and again, I see [00:45:20] parallels in what I do, but the hours aren't exactly sociable. You know, these guys can be [00:45:25] eating at 11, 12 at night after they finished their show, going to bed at two, waking up [00:45:30] at one in the afternoon, coming back in for a show. And it. That [00:45:35] is difficult.
[00:45:35] Martin: It takes its toll. I don't know how somebody who's doing [00:45:40] eight shows a week, for instance, frankly, manages it a lot of the time that [00:45:45] these guys, you know, I sort of see the, as I'm sure, as I know you guys do, you see the [00:45:50] behind the scenes of this and sometimes they are utterly exhausted. Um, [00:45:55] but that drive to, to continue in that drive to not [00:46:00] take a break and the show must go on.
[00:46:02] Martin: It's just so overwhelming for them that it [00:46:05] just gets them through. I think the thing I worry about from that perspective is, you [00:46:10] know, these guys getting, getting burnt out at some point. And again, [00:46:15] pots and kettles. But you can, you can see it happening and you've [00:46:20] seen it happen very easily to some of these guys because they just, the buzz of [00:46:25] being, I mean, I can't imagine what that must be like to be.
[00:46:28] Martin: on the stage [00:46:30] singing to a packed out house who are having the best time. I can't imagine how [00:46:35] addictive that must be. I went on the stage once to give us like a safety briefing and I was [00:46:40] terrified. There were only about 30 people in the audience. I was horrified. But, um, [00:46:45] but it was just, um, I think what these guys would [00:46:50] benefit from is if they can being able to sort of plan out [00:46:55] some breaks, plan out some leave.
[00:46:57] Martin: I know that's not easy. I know I may be [00:47:00] asking the impossible, but it would be so helpful for them because, you know, just to try and avoid, [00:47:05] uh, this constant treadmill and, and, and potential burnout. [00:47:10] It'd be fantastic if they could. Some of the shows are so physical, so, so like [00:47:15] draining. And you know, you watch the show and you feel tired watching it.
[00:47:18] Martin: How would mamas [00:47:20] then feel doing that eight times a
[00:47:21] Claire: week? And that's part of the wonder of going [00:47:25] to see a show sometimes. Sometimes it's a very intimate, you know, conversation between two players [00:47:30] or, or a one man show. Other times, it is, it is [00:47:35] this incredible, almost beyond human performance that you're [00:47:40] watching and, and a number of people doing that together that's actually, you talked about it being [00:47:45] health giving.
[00:47:45] Claire: I do think that, you know, it's a little more moment of awe, isn't it? We've heard a lot recently [00:47:50] about, you know, how good just having awe and wonder is for your mental health and just [00:47:55] that they're doing that.
[00:47:58] Martin: Completely kind of incredible [00:48:00] is, you know, it's an amazing, amazing, amazing, you know, part of the entertainment industry to be a [00:48:05] part of.
[00:48:05] Martin: It's just that they're an unbelievable bunch of, of performers and [00:48:10] staff, the producers, the vision, everything. It's, it's, it's real, [00:48:15] a real honor to be a small part of that. Um, and just kind of see a show go. I mean, I took my kids [00:48:20] to watch. Uh, well, I went to see a couple of the [00:48:25] performers at Old Friends while it was on, and I had to take my kids with me.
[00:48:28] Martin: Um,
[00:48:29] Claire: [00:48:30] History repeating itself.
[00:48:32] Martin: But this was amazing. So, you know, [00:48:35] I'm, I'm downstairs seeing one of the performers and I, Try and go upstairs to find my kids [00:48:40] and, um, the company managers taking them up to watch the warmup and they're doing cartwheels across the stage with Bonnie [00:48:45] Lungford and, uh, singing away with the conductor, just standing [00:48:50] in the wings thinking, this is surreal, but fascinating.
[00:48:53] Martin: And that, that kind [00:48:55] of, you know, impression that that will give a nine year old and a six year old [00:49:00] girl, it's incredible. You know, and that, that stays with people. So even [00:49:05] if you're not backstage, you're getting to sort of interact with people, but you're just watching the show. The, the, the impact it can [00:49:10] have on people is just so enduring and, um, [00:49:15] uplifting.
[00:49:16] Oren: That's really special.
[00:49:17] Claire: Wanted to ask you about, uh, [00:49:20] you were recently appointed to the, I'm going to forget the name of them. Oh, the Royal Theatrical Fund. [00:49:25]
[00:49:25] Martin: Yeah. So, um, Tell us about that work. Again. Also congratulations. Oh, [00:49:30] Um, I, I believe my, Uh, title is Honorary Medical Advisor. [00:49:35] Wow. To give it a bit of technical name, I think.
[00:49:38] Martin: They're an amazing organization. [00:49:40] So it started by Charles Dickens, um, on Garrick street [00:49:45] and they meet once a month and they, similar to the Actors Benevolent [00:49:50] Fund, they're a charity that will support struggling, uh, actors, but not just [00:49:55] actors. That's the, that's the amazing thing about the RTF. They'll support anybody who works.
[00:49:59] Martin: [00:50:00] In or around entertainment. So cameraman, sound, producer, [00:50:05] um, anyone who has fallen on hard times, you can apply [00:50:10] and the people in the organization are just wonderful. They're fantastic. They have [00:50:15] huge hearts. They've done the job for years and they love it. It means so much [00:50:20] to them. Some of them have been helped by the RTF in the past.
[00:50:23] Martin: Um, and you can see how much they [00:50:25] care and, and the thought and. And love that goes into [00:50:30] talking through new applicants and the number of people they support is just amazing. [00:50:35] Um, so I started doing that a year ago, again, thanks to Dr. Keith, he, he, after he [00:50:40] retired from looking after Cameron shows, he continued to do the RTF job for a little bit.[00:50:45]
[00:50:45] Martin: Um, but he decided to retire from that last year. So he asked if I would like to [00:50:50] take over and I, I met some of the board and. They're amazing. So no, [00:50:55] it's another like really, really rewarding part of my job.
[00:50:58] Claire: Amazing. [00:51:00] Amazing. It just makes me want to say thank you to you. Thank you also to Dr. Keith, but [00:51:05] thank you to you for the work you do to support.
[00:51:08] Martin: Look, [00:51:10] it's an absolute pleasure. Like I said, it's my job, so I'm delighted. Absolutely delighted. [00:51:15] It's
[00:51:15] Claire: really wonderful. We have a couple of traditions. On the podcast and [00:51:20] you're going to have to be a little bit creative.
[00:51:21] Martin: [00:51:25] Um,
[00:51:25] Claire: so we normally ask people what they do at the five minute call [00:51:30]
[00:51:30] Martin: and we'd love to know what you do with that
[00:51:32] Claire: question.
[00:51:34] Martin: That would probably be [00:51:35] me trying to give someone an injection of B12 or something just to give them [00:51:40] that last minute perk to get them back out there. He says, having said earlier, he's not [00:51:45] trying to dope people. No, no, no,
[00:51:46] Claire: no. Of course.
[00:51:48] Martin: No, usually it's either looking into [00:51:50] someone's throat with a torch, like, I think it's fine, you can go out [00:51:55] or, uh, or just making someone feel a little bit more comfortable with what they're about to do.
[00:51:59] Martin: So, [00:52:00] uh, yeah, no, I think that's, that's usually what I'll be doing at that time.
[00:52:03] Claire: Amazing. [00:52:05] Amazing. I don't think I'd taken on board. You've been in buildings at the five minute call doing that.
[00:52:09] Martin: A [00:52:10] couple of times I've been there, like literally just before they're about. So they're in full [00:52:15] costume, literally about to go on.
[00:52:17] Martin: And I'm sort of seeing them about something and just trying to like [00:52:20] get all my stuff out of the way so they can run out there. Dressing room.
[00:52:22] Claire: Wow. So that was a lot more of a [00:52:25] relevant question than we imagined it was going to be.
[00:52:27] Martin: That was a
[00:52:28] Oren: fantastic, fantastic response. Has there been a [00:52:30] moment where you've said to somebody in, you can't go on?
[00:52:33] Oren: No, thankfully. [00:52:35]
[00:52:36] Martin: I'm working up to that and being honest. [00:52:40] That's not happened yet. And truthfully, that's not been needed yet. I do not finish the [00:52:45] day. I have to say that five minutes
[00:52:47] Oren: to go. Wow. Wow. [00:52:50] Intense. Wow. We have one final thing for you. Sure. Every week we get the [00:52:55] previous guest to write a question for the next guest.
[00:52:57] Oren: Oh wow. And it goes completely unseen by all of us [00:53:00] until the moment that we read it to you. Oh my gosh, um, it's a little, [00:53:05] maybe this is a bit of a heavy hitter. Okay.
[00:53:07] Claire: Okay. Here we go, brace yourselves people.
[00:53:09] Oren: [00:53:10] I'm ready. What would you like to be written in your obituary, and what [00:53:15] publication would it appear?
[00:53:18] Oren: Take from that [00:53:20] what you will. Wow. That is a big question.
[00:53:24] Martin: That's a [00:53:25] somewhat, like, life reflective question. Yeah. I would be quite [00:53:30] happy if my obituary, uh, said This
[00:53:34] Oren: [00:53:35] doesn't have to be a serious answer. No, no, no.
[00:53:38] Martin: Well, [00:53:40] I'd hope it was a semi serious obituary. No, I'd be quite happy if it [00:53:45] just said that I was a warm and personable and caring guy.
[00:53:49] Martin: who [00:53:50] hopefully, uh, helps more people than he harmed in total over the course of his career. [00:53:55] Um, and I wouldn't mind if that was in the times. Very nice. I [00:54:00] don't think I'll get that, but I wouldn't
[00:54:02] Oren: mind. [00:54:05] Wow. That, that, I mean, in all the questions that we have had, I had, [00:54:10] I would never have expected that to be.
[00:54:12] Oren: one that was delivered. That's big. [00:54:15] That is a big question. Not to, you know, Monday morning.[00:54:20]
[00:54:22] Claire: Thank you so much for spending your [00:54:25] time with us this morning. for sharing your story with us. Absolutely. We've loved it. [00:54:30]
[00:54:30] Oren: Yeah. This has been really fun. And inevitably, we're going to get questions, so we [00:54:35] might have to get you on again because people are going to laugh. I'd be delighted. I'd be delighted.[00:54:40]
[00:54:40] Oren: We really hope you enjoyed this episode of The 5 Minute Call. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button, like this [00:54:45] video, and ring the bell for notifications. Your support really helps us bring you more [00:54:50] amazing stories.
[00:54:51] Claire: If you are or have been affected by any of the topics discussed [00:54:55] in today's episode, please see the show notes below for some helpful [00:55:00] resources.