Behind the Seams: Charlotte Simpson's Journey from Dresser to Head of Wardrobe

Oren: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the five minute call. The podcast that takes a deep dive into the stories of the people that make theatre happen.

Claire: Today we're talking to Charlotte Simpson who's worked her way up from dresser to head of wardrobe over her 15 year career in musical theatre.

Oren: Charlotte has worked on major West End productions including School of Rock and is currently head of wardrobe on Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club.

Claire: In our conversation, Charlotte shares fascinating insights into the intricacies of costume maintenance, quick changes, working with child actors, and translating designers visions into practical stage costumes.

Announcer Voice: Members of the company, this is your five minute call. All beginners, please make your way to the stage. This is your five minute call. Your five minute call.

Oren: Hello. How are you?

Charlotte: I'm good.

Oren: Thank you. How are you? Yeah, not bad. All good. We are all about people's [00:01:00] stories on this podcast and we would love to know your story of how you got into.

Charlotte: I think the best way to start is amateur dramatics. I think a lot of people tend to start as how they kind of find out a little bit about theater. But my parents met in amateur dramatics. So my mom used to be on stage or still is on stage sometimes. And my dad, by profession, is a architectural lighting designer.

But he does. lighting for the amateur dramatics as a hobby. So that's how they met. So I always had kind of someone on stage and someone backstage to kind of Uh, to kind of see what they got up to. I would always be down at rehearsals, you know, build ups, the tech weeks and all the rest of it. And then as soon as I was old enough, obviously it was on stage with my sister dancing away.

Um, and then I think it came to the point of choosing a career and I was like, Oh, do I want to do dancing or. You know, or is there another aspect or something else that I'd like to do [00:02:00] and the reality being I was not good enough to be a performer, but I kind of was fortunate to have that realization that that wasn't the case, but actually that there would be other aspects of theater that could go into.

And then I thought about costume. My mum also does a lot of sewage. She used to be a curtain maker. So we always had a lot of sewing, sewing machines around the house and all that kind of thing. So I was like, Oh, maybe that could be a bit fun. And then I was fortunate to find, uh, the costume course, costume production at Roseburyford College.

So I got in there and then that led straight out into my, my career as it were. And, uh, and yeah, so that's kind of how I started, which was a great way to start. It was a lots of fun.

Claire: How many productions do you think you did?

Charlotte: I reckon, I mean the first one I did, I think I was about 8, I did a panto. I was a mouse in Hickory Dickory Dock.

Um, so if you include the pantomimes I did, I think I probably did about 20. Between the ages of like 7 or 8. 18, 19. Yeah.

Claire: That's [00:03:00] amazing. Yeah. And was that all outside school?

Charlotte: Yeah. And then I did drama, GCSE and A level. So I did some school productions as well. But the, where I live, there's quite a, a thriving amateur dramatic community.

So there's a, like an operatic society and there's a panto society and then various other places. So there was lots of shows to choose from, you know, So yeah, I had lots of friends there. It was good fun.

Claire: Yeah, I think friendship's a big part of it, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. That feeling, beginning to develop something that feels like home.

Yeah. Because it's where you have your fun times. And also,

Charlotte: like, my family were all going down there anyway. You know, my brother does light and design. So he kind of followed with my dad, started off with my dad. My sister's a performer as well. So, you know, so it was like a family affair. You know, we'd go down there.

Um, my godmother's involved in it. You know, like it was just a, a big old social. So I used to love doing it and it was

Claire: So costume was the, the route [00:04:00] you decided on. Had you been doing, did you dabble in any of that for those productions?

Charlotte: Well a bit, my, again because my mum sewed. She'd often get asked to kind of help with various alterations or things or, you know, and because she's been doing it for years, she's got a bit of a store of costumes anyway.

So when it came to, you know, the costumes always arrive like two days before you're about to do a dress rehearsal with that much dramatics and it's like mad panic. I haven't got this, I haven't got that or this doesn't fit. So, you know, there'd be the people that have been doing it for a little while would always be like, it's all right.

I've got a pair of gloves you could have, or I've got this or let's try that. So I kind of saw mum. Do bits of that. And I think there was one, one year we did a pantomime where we basically made all the costumes. I must have been about 16 at the time I took over our lives. It was, we made so many costumes and then we stupidly did it again, uh, for the Wizard of Oz where literally the house was just covered like head to toe.

I think we worked out. We made something like [00:05:00] 125 costumes or a ridiculous number, but yeah, so I kind of. I knew a bit about it. Obviously, that's not, that doesn't resemble any way how the profession works at all. But, you know, like they're coming, like creating it, going out and finding fabric, making it, fitting it.

It was a good starting point, time management for sure, you know, are we going to get all this done mum or are we not, but, um, I'd had a couple of experiences of doing, you know, large scale in terms of production of costumes before I even applied to Roseburyford to get in. So yeah, so I'd, I'd had a little bit of an intro and I enjoyed it as much as it was stressful at times.

Um, I did enjoy it. So I knew that I'd be quite happy to kind of pursue it as a, as a career route.

Claire: And I'm just realizing, as you're saying, Rose Bruford, I, I know exactly what the audition process looks like for performers going into colleges. What, what does it look like?

Charlotte: You had to take like a portfolio of work, I guess, [00:06:00] and like things that you might have made.

They weren't, they weren't particularly like it was a definite, you have to have made something. Fortunately, I've done textiles for a level. So I had some things to take in. Done all my amdram shows. So, you know, you put all that in there to show you've got an interest in theater. They were really keen to just see that you were enthusiastic.

They didn't want to see that you had all the answers. They wanted to see that you were going to be committed because, you know, I think most of the courses at Rose Bruford, it's You have to turn up to learn the stuff. It's not like here's a one hour lecture. Go and do your homework. Like you have to physically turn up and be present to learn the stuff.

So they wanted to see that you were just keen. You didn't have to have particularly high grades. I'm not a designer at all. Designing is not my forte. I'm very much a practical,

Oren: you know,

Charlotte: maker. And that's what this course was. So it was, um. They wanted to see that you could kind of decipher things and stuff like that.

And I got a conditional offer, but like two days later, like the grades, like I said, they didn't have [00:07:00] to be particularly high. Um, and I think they saw that I had clearly quite a, quite a background of a interest in theater and Obviously thought that I'd be suitable for the course, which was great.

Brilliant.

Oren: So by practical, do you mean this very hands on you're doing a lot of making things?

Charlotte: Yeah, I guess the easiest way to describe it is that if you showed me a design, I could kind of go, right, so this is how I would take it apart and physically make it. Whereas I couldn't come up with a design. I couldn't create, you know, how that's meant to be, what that's meant to mean, you know, the, whatever they're trying to achieve from a, an emotional point of view, I guess, I wouldn't know that, but I can implement that on stage.

And more so these days, I do less costume baking, it's more the alterations, but you know, if you do a show where it's a lot of shop bought stuff. And they're like, right, we want to completely change the shape of this jacket, you know, from a single breasted to a double breasted and put shoulder pads in.

None of [00:08:00] that stuff would really stress me out that much. Um, but someone else would have to kind of create the look that they wanted and then I could implement it.

Claire: That's an amazing talent to have to be able to translate somebody's. Yeah.

Charlotte: I mean, there's definitely been times where I've been terrified, you know, as you've like progress and you, you get more and more responsibility for these sorts of things, particularly as you go, you know, I started as a dresser and I now head of wardrobe, so you're in fittings more, but there's always that first time that you're presented with, right, so this is what we would like you to do.

And you're like, uh huh. Yeah, sure. No worries. But, um, but you just learn and the more you do it, you know, I'd say I'd feel more comfortable doing alterations, like taking something apart. And changing it than I would making something from scratch, but yeah, it's, it's just, it's a bit mathematical, I guess it's quite a logical process, which I quite enjoy.

You just got to do it piece by piece, one bit at a time and then gradually put it all back together [00:09:00] again, take lots of photos. My camera roll is filled with various seams and you know, like things so that I can reference it when I'm taking it apart. I need to try and remember how I need to put it back together again, because I guarantee I'll have forgotten you when I come back to it three days later.

Claire: Yeah, I'm imagining a car that's been taken apart now and just like, uh, I was just about to say, Why don't I put the wheels back on? I recently

Oren: just dismantled a wardrobe and we didn't have the instructions for it. So we literally took pictures of every single stage. And I'm hoping that when we come to rebuild it, we just go in reverse.

But I don't know if it's going to work. Well, I mean, the

Charlotte: theory should be there.

Oren: Yeah.

Charlotte: It's our videos as well. I've got a lot of videos.

Claire: So you came out of Rose Brouford, you said, straight into a dresser's job. Yeah, I worked

Charlotte: on Never Forget at the Savoy Theatre and I'm a massive Take That fan. So I was thrilled.

And I had a ball, I had a great time and it was, it was a great show. It was a really busy show, like really good. quick change heavy. [00:10:00] Um, so it was a great kind of introduction to how mad it can be, you know, and also how you have to kind of work together with the other, other dresses and other departments, you know, it's like, well, you can't set your change up yet because there's a bit of set going to go on, but in a minute.

You can set it up, but then you have to clear it quickly because then someone's going to come off and we've got to get this done. And it's like when you're learning a plot, everyone else knows what's going on apart from you. So the pressure of that is quite a lot because you're given like about three shows.

But when you're coming in cold, it's a bit like, oh, wow, that's a lot of information. But I had an absolute ball and I made some great friends. Um, and that lasted until Christmas. It was only about three months that I was there for and then the show closed. Um, but then I was fortunate to get a job on Oliver, which was just opening at Drury Lane.

And that was completely different, but wonderful in so many other ways. You know, it was a grand spectacle. It was so big, you know, the department was four times the [00:11:00] size. I think, you know, there were so many of us, all those kids. There were 50, 50 and I, I think, yeah. Like it was. a completely different kettle of fish, but wonderful, you know, to kind of just experience it all the bits that I love, but in a different, a different way, a different format.

Claire: So I've got loads of questions for you. Number one is whenever we have somebody on in a new role, we ask, could you explain that role for us? It seems to me that you're going to have to explain quite a few as your career progresses here. You've sort of given us an idea of a dresser, but just give us the, give us the crib notes.

Charlotte: A dresser is responsible. Oh God, I hope I do this correctly and I don't offend everyone in the, uh, in the wardrobe department. You're generally given like a selection of people to look after within the show. So you might be a principal dresser or boys ensemble, girls ensemble. So it's just a select number of people and you're responsible for all those costumes during the show.

So some shows will be quick change heavy, you know, particularly big dance shows where you literally have a chair and you layer up 10 sets of [00:12:00] costumes because they've got about 20 seconds each to come and change it. So it's your responsibility to make sure. You've got all the costumes, they're all set in the correct place.

You know, things get ripped and torn that you keep on top of that, you pass it on to the wardrobe department, make sure you bring it back down again the next day. Um, other times it can be a quieter show, but you're more responsible kind of looking after the people. So often like if you're a principal dresser, there's a bit more kind of.

You know, making sure they're all right in terms of getting to and from the stage. I mean, um, I worked with a lovely performer once who I shan't name, but she couldn't see very well, particularly in the dark. So there was a lot of escorting her, like, backstage to make sure she could get onto the right wing and get on stage without injuring and damaging herself.

And sometimes responsibilities like that can fall to a dresser. Not that it's technically their responsibility, but, um You know, the person on hand and when you, you know, when they're nice and you like them and you don't want them to get injured on stage, then you're like, no, it's fine. You know, you're not so responsible for [00:13:00] doing the notes and alterations.

It's more everything that's needed within the show to make sure that the costumes and the performer appear on stage at the right time. And sometimes if they're going back into stuff, you have to kind of, you know, it comes off and you've got to give it to someone else so that they can put it on in another change.

There's a lot of like running under stairs and meeting dressers halfway, you know and collecting it Or when something breaks mid show and they've got to go back into it as well Sometimes you do have to do a repair or get someone down to try and fix it. We've had that as well

Oren: That's mental

Claire: Yeah, yeah The stress levels of that making me already go

Charlotte: It's one of my favorite questions in an interview is to ask people like have you ever experienced a costume You know, malfunction, we say, and what do you do in that situation?

Because I've definitely panicked at times. I've nearly done some terrible, terrible things to costumes and to try and get someone out of it in order to get them on stage, you know, like literally cutting down a custom made pair of boots was a thought that I had. [00:14:00] Fortunately someone else stepped in in time and managed to just yank the zip open and then we replaced the zip which is obviously the more common sense answer but the sometimes when panic takes over you're like I've just got to cut you out of it there's no other option

Claire: yeah yeah gosh and keeping the performer calm I would have thought in that situation as well yeah

Charlotte: definitely

Claire: definitely

Charlotte: yeah and also you know performers deal with so much like the pressure of them being on stage when things happen and they come off stage you've just got to be able to kind of You know, take it and understand it and, you know, try and keep them, like you say, keep 'em calm.

Mm-hmm.

Oren: Mm-hmm.

Charlotte: Yeah.

Oren: We had another guest on that was talking about, I was just thinking Yeah. About the, the process of the thing about orbiting around each other. Like do they rotate as the dresser addresses or do, do they stand still in the dresser rotates, and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that or if you have a preference.

Charlotte: I think it depends on. On how many people are needed for the change.

Oren: So

Charlotte: sometimes you might have like a wig going on, a costume going on. Sometimes [00:15:00] a mic might need moving. So we have some changes at the moment where there could be four other departments needed for the change. So the best way in that situation, I'd say it's like a Formula One pit stop, you know.

You come in and just stand there and it's easier for us to work it out around you. But there's as much choreography going on backstage as there is on stage sometimes. You know, it's strategic, to the second. And, um, And sometimes it's like we had, um, on one show performer has to come off. She had to kind of pull her trousers down and then sit down so that the wig go on, but stick her legs out so we could get the boots and the leggings off.

And then we'd get the gown ready. And then that would go over the head last minute. You know, like sometimes it literally is. It's a full on dance routine between everyone to get it going. But I think. Often it's easier if the performer stays still, and then you kind of work around them.

Oren: It sounds like one of those machines that you'd see in Wallace and Crommet.

Wallace and Crommet, yeah!

Charlotte: It is sometimes. It is, yeah. I mean, yeah, that'd be quite a cool creation actually. [00:16:00] Just get them all lined up.

Oren: Yeah.

Charlotte: It sounds quite exhilarating. It is. I do love it on a brand, brand new show. I think it's the bit that people Some people hate the most because it probably is the most stressful that first dress rehearsal or that first preview when it's all coming together for the first time you've checked it all but obviously it's you know in segments and then all of a sudden you're like right there's There's no extra time here.

We can't go back if we've gone wrong. We've got to try and keep this going. That, that first show where it's all running together. Oh, that is my highlight. That is kind of the best bit. Cause if you get to the end, there's no feeling like it. Cause it means all that work you've done over all the tech, you know, all the hard work, those long hours has been worth it.

It's kind of, in essence, you've got, it's worked, it's all come together and it is quite exciting. And yeah. And I mean, not that I'd ever admit it to anyone. Um, but something goes wrong sometimes. Like the heart [00:17:00] goes racing, you know, are we going to get this done in time? Are we going to make it work? And when it's successful and you do make it work in time, that's quite a quite a good moment.

Yeah, I

Claire: completely agree. I think that's true of performance as well. It's like those those moments on stage where it really wakes you up and it's like. All the neurons fire all at once, like how are we going to get this done? How are we going to solve it? Activate God mode! Yes, exactly! I know everything!

And also the teamwork required for that as well, I love that sense of

Charlotte: And it's amazing how instinctive it can be between Even different departments, I guess I'd notice it more within the department, but in those moments, how you don't have to say, but someone's thinking ahead. So they've done something which helps you out.

And then, you know, and almost without any conversation at all, you've managed to kind of get this thing because everyone's just instinctively kind of on the same page about it. And that's always quite satisfying. I think that's a sign of a good kind of team that it's all kind of gelled together. [00:18:00]

Claire: Do you meet a lot of the same people as you're moving from one show to another?

Charlotte: Not as many as you'd think. I mean, I mean, I've been doing this just over 15 years now, which is quite long. So you'd think, you know, you start a new show or there's bound to be someone I know, but often there's only maybe one or two and they might, I might not even know them that well. It's a little bit different now with the wardrobe team specifically, because as a head of wardrobe, I get to pick the people that I want, particularly if you're starting a new show.

So often within my team, there'll be a fair number of people that I know. Um, and I'm, you know, I enjoy working with, but in terms of like particularly cast, not, not as many, there are the odd few, but, um, I just think, you know, but it's one of the great things I used to terrify me first, first days and the fact that there were so many new people, so many new people to know, and I didn't know anyone.

I didn't have my friend, you know, like a buddy or someone to hang out with, but actually that's the joy of the industry is meeting new people. And. You know, and particularly get to spend a long period of time with them if you've got [00:19:00] a year's contract or something, you know, it's lovely kind of getting to know them over that year and season three, you know, I've seen particularly within my own department, lots of weddings, people moving homes, getting puppies, you know, it's lovely to kind of see how their lives are progressing and you're kind of a part of it.

It's, um, it's a really, really satisfying thing. I'm

Claire: really

Charlotte: interested

Claire: in your job, not so much now, but certainly learning to make everything and put stuff together. I imagine you could have gone in different directions. You didn't need to have gone into theatre necessarily.

Oren: Yeah.

Claire: But I'm really fascinated by how, how the job changes because it's attached to theatre.

I have a few personal friends who've worked in fashion, for example, and I just feel like there's the extra element here is, is theatre. The extra element is what you've been describing, that kind of, okay, well now it's. It just has to go, but also the proximity to performance and

Charlotte: yeah, the

Claire: buzz of audience and things does that.

Charlotte: So I think, you know, at college, it was kind [00:20:00] of clear that on my course, there were kind of two directions. Like you tend to find people go into making or they go into theater. Those are the two branches. It's quite rare. That there's an overlap, um, between the two. And I was always very much, I wanted to be in the theater making it happen.

And I think that's from the experiences I'd had with AmJam. I knew that that sociability was the bit I wanted was I feel like making is very much, it's more routine, you know, you have your evenings, you have your weekends, but there's less variety with it, less flexibility, I guess. Um, So working in the theater was very much, I knew that's where I wanted to go.

I didn't want to be making full time. Um, I mean, it's an incredible, I mean, some of our makers are absolutely phenomenal. But for me, I need, I like the chat. I like chatting with people and getting to know people and, you know, particularly with dressing. Cause you, you know, you're literally out there with everyone.

Uh, the performers, stage [00:21:00] management, you know, sound, you know, there's, there's a lot of sociability with it, which is, which is great.

Claire: Yeah, that, um, feeling of everybody working towards the same goal. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So what happens from dresser? What's, what's next? So after a

Charlotte: dresser, generally speaking, you go to a wardrobe assistant, which is, so most shows will have a, a wardrobe team.

So I guess the easiest way to put it as a dresser, you're responsible for, you know, a selection of the cast and looking after their costumes. As a wardrobe assistant, you, you're the bottom rung of, Responsibility for the whole show or in terms of costumes. Um, so often you might act as a swing dresser, which is a bit like a swing performer.

So if a dress is off sick or poorly or on holiday, you would cover all of those plots, which is great from a knowledge point of view because it means you understand how everything works. You see all the costumes, but you also do, you know, the alterations and the notes and. The [00:22:00] stuff that needs to be done in wardrobe to kind of maintain the costumes and keep them looking good and working well on stage.

And then after wardrobe assistant, you have a wardrobe deputy who does that, but with more responsibility. And then you have the head of wardrobe who manages the department. Um, so yeah, so head of wardrobe, deputy and assistant are kind of responsible for the show as a whole. And the dresses have more detailed knowledge of just a specific set of people and costumes.

Claire: And exactly what comes together at what moment, I guess, yeah, timings and

Charlotte: all of the rest of it. Yeah, definitely.

Oren: Sounds like a swing dresser could be actually quite fun.

Charlotte: I mean, it's a lot like, I mean, some shows have like 12, 13 plots. That's an awful lot of. Information and some plots. It's literally like, you know, so you're here, they're going to come off.

You've got 20 seconds. So you've literally got to do hooks one, three and five, the left shoe, not the right shoe, put the bracelet on the necklace and then you've got to run over to that costume over there [00:23:00] and then, you know, and you need on the floor. It's the left shoe first of all. And then you need to get the wooden hanger, not the plastic hanger, you know, and you're like, wow.

But once you've got all that information, it's quite a nice feeling because you, you know, you're through. How everything links together, which is, um, reassuring, I think, is also the thing, because then when things do happen or crop up, you can kind of say better to go, actually, it's all right, I can not do that because there's a bit more time and we can do that or we can You know, keep that bit till later, or I can run up at that point and go and get it.

So it's um, but yeah, it's a lot of information. I've literally gone around with like, pamphlets of notes, like safety pin to me, because I need both my hands to carry baskets. I think I've got 20

Claire: seconds to get to the stage, but that's fine. This is one thing that always strikes me about the dresses, is they have to be the fittest people in the building.

I just see them, like at Hamilton, they're walking around, they've got, I don't know how many massive dresses on their arm. Three flights of stairs, up and down. I just think Wardrobe's

Charlotte: always [00:24:00] at the top, always at the top or right at the bottom, I don't know why. But um, yeah, and baskets and baskets of, you know, shoes, everything that needs carrying around.

But I guess that's key when you're setting up a show, to try and limit that as best you can, you know, where you can try and be a bit economical or share out, you know. I've had it before where one person, literally, their preset was done in about 20 minutes and someone else's took them an hour and a half and it's like, right, should we try and maybe we can help each other out here, you know, in some way to keep that balanced.

Oren: I didn't realise the actual, like, dressing was so methodical and so specific, down to like the degree of which shoe on which leg, uh. But I didn't realize it was that specific.

Charlotte: It can, like if a change is quick enough, those are things, the last thing you want is, you know, you've got the left shoe out and someone's put the right foot forward, you know, like, and you're doing a little dance, trying to get it ready.

So it is, and when you're the dresser, those things become really instinctive. But it's when [00:25:00] you put a swing dresser in that it's quite noticeable actually how routine you've got, like some things you don't even realize you built into that kind of a routine. And when I was dressing on a show. I used to wait until the performer went on stage, and then I used to go in to pre set the next costume in the dressing room.

It wasn't overly quick, and I always used to, I always knock, regardless if I know they're gonna be in there or not, and I knocked on the door, they shouldn't have been in there, and they were, and he went, Oh, what are you doing here? And I was like, Well, I'm about to sit your question. Why aren't you meant to be on stage?

And he, and he went running and he came back and he went, thank goodness you came in. But it's only because like, literally I used to wait outside until a particular word on a particular song, just because that's the routine that I'd got into. So not to that point. And obviously on this particular day, it just got distracted or I don't know what had happened.

But, um, but yeah, fortunately he made it on stage on time and it was fine, but I think it does tend to get particularly on long running show. Like, like you do get into. Routines. Clockwork. [00:26:00] Yeah, you're like

Oren: the timekeeper of the building, really.

Charlotte: Yeah, and then, and you know, you can leave it later and later.

Like still with enough time, but at the start you're always there with like five minutes to spare and you're like, well, this is pointless. So you're like, actually, you know, if I wait till literally they say that word and then I can, I can go and there's plenty of time to get there, get the change done.

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Claire: What was the first show you went from dresser to wardrobe assistant?

Charlotte: So the first show where I made the transition was on Legally Blonde. I started as a dresser and then When some people left, there was a position opened and I was fortunate to get that position, uh, wardrobe assistant position.[00:27:00]

I had prior done a season at Regent's Park as wardrobe assistant, so I had done the role before, but um, but I hadn't gone from dresser to assistant within that, within that contract. But yeah, but Legally Blonde was a, that was a busy show. So it was a good one to get you to, and actually I kind of benefited because I dressed it first when I came to be I already had a bit of You know, extra knowledge in terms of the costumes and the plots and all of that kind of stuff, which helped.

And the head of wardrobe on that show was brilliant and organized. And I kind of saw how to make an efficient department. Like I kind of saw what, what decisions you kind of had to make to make it run smoothly and keep everything covered and all the rest of it. So I, yeah, it was quite a, quite a good learning curve, that one for me.

Claire: Yeah, we talked about this with Lorna, I think, the, the learning from other people's watching, watching their craft and going, yeah, that suits me that that doesn't, how much does personality come into the role? [00:28:00]

Charlotte: In terms of, um, how I approach the role, I think 80 percent of the job is personality. People skills and sociability, you know, particularly as a head of department, because communication is the main thing.

You're trying to impart information to your team, to other people. You might have notes, things might not have gone right. You know, you've got to be able to be happy to go up to anyone in the building, whatever role or, you know, whoever they are and be happy to speak to them. Be happy to have a conversation on stuff and not be defensive or, you know, or not come across as argumentative.

You know, I'm not blaming anyone, just trying to resolve a problem here. Um, so I think personality is the main thing and, you know, everyone wants to come into work and have a good time. There's no reason to make things difficult or hard. So if I can have a laugh at work, then I'm. Absolutely on board with that.

Oren: Definitely. I suppose you have, you do have to have good people skills because you're getting really close and [00:29:00] personal with people. Yeah, absolutely. If you've got rubbish people skills, it doesn't really seem like it would work.

Charlotte: Well, I think there's a lot of performers that are quite happy to come into a wardrobe room and just take their clothes off.

They know that's what the deal is and they feel quite comfortable with that. But there are equally. You can't make that presumption. You have to always approach it a bit sensitively. So you have to be able to have some chat. And if there are people that, uh, Maybe more self conscious, be aware of that, keep people out of the room, but have, you know, a bit of nice conversation going on so you're not just standing there silently whilst they're kind of taking their clothes off, which would be, you know, intimidating for quite a lot of people.

I mean, I don't know that I would want to do it.

Claire: I certainly would not want to do it. No way. Yeah.

Charlotte: You're also creating safe spaces. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And that's, You know, the more I've done the head of wardrobe stuff, I've been involved in fittings a bit more and been around supervisors more. That's definitely something that I've been aware of and I would always now.

Like I say, [00:30:00] like some people just kind of like doors open everywhere. Anyone can walk in and they'll just take their clothes off, but I would always shut the door. I'd always put a sign on it saying fittings in progress, you know, like just, just to give them the space to feel comfortable, you know, as you're dealing with whatever you're dealing with.

And sometimes they can go on for an extended period of time. The physics sometimes it might be, you know, someone's pregnant, which could be a bit of a, a bit of a nightmare from a question point of view because you're constantly having to let things out, but they might not want people to know yet. So sometimes you're given, you know, that position of responsibility, I guess, and secrecy of confidential confidentiality.

That's the word I'm looking for. Um, so, you know, you have to take it seriously when it comes to people's Feelings and all the rest of it.

Oren: What about with young people because they're I'm assuming there is Chaperones and other people that have to be involved in that process. So how does that differ?

Charlotte: So I did um School of rock which is obviously quite a big kid show.

Yeah, and we had a cracking set of chaperones Um, [00:31:00] and we got on really well, and it's it's just making sure that you know What's going on? The guidance and the rules that are in place for that. And generally the chaperones, like I'd always converse with the chaperones first to make sure we're on the same page and that we're happy with whatever's, um, going on.

And as long as there's a chaperone present, generally speaking, you know, you're, you're able to do the fittings in whatever way, but again, I'd always say there's a toilet there, so if you want to go into the toilet and get changed, if you feel. Self conscious and then come out. The last thing you want to do is put a child in a position where they feel, you know, really stressed about something like that.

And we had two changing rooms where they would just go in and shut the door. They could do the chain, like get into their costume privately. And then they'd come out and we would check them once they were out. So they didn't feel like we were kind of. Anyway,

Oren: does that then change the speed of the process?

I assume you can't do as quick changes with children then just because of that time delay.

Charlotte: Yeah. Sometimes it does. Yeah. Most of the show was all right. They just [00:32:00] stayed in the one set. Yeah. But at the very end, there were six children that had to do quick changes and there were a mixture of girls and boys.

You know, kids can't see adults changing, adults can't see kids changing, boys can't, you know, the logistics of trying to work that out was kind of like a jigsaw puzzle, you know, trying to figure it out and the ones that had needed more help. But again, you could help the kids do quick changes. If there was a chaperone present and then they can, you know, they're overseeing and safeguarding the child and you can do the changes that you need to do.

And sometimes it was like, you know, you could give, if someone only had to change a top, you could give them a t shirt to wear underneath and actually then that eliminated the need for as much kind of privacy. And again, a chaperone would always be present to kind of oversee it. And generally speaking, adults would make themselves scarce at that moment.

Anyway, they would know kind of not to linger around. It's

Oren: so fascinating 'cause there's so many more mechanics to this with anything when you have children involved. Oh, for sure. Yes. But [00:33:00] I just think the logistics of navigating all of that is incredible.

Charlotte: Yeah.

Oren: I didn't, yeah, I mean, of course I, I mean, I was gonna say, I didn't realize how complicated, complicated it was, but actually it has to be that complicated.

Claire: Yeah. I imagine it's changed a lot. In the last decade, yeah, for sure.

Charlotte: Yeah, I think obviously I worked on Oliver many, many years ago now. Um, I didn't have a huge amount to do with the kids at that time, but they were, it was a school room at the top of the building at Drury Lane and they were all in there.

But I know that when I started School of Rock, they were, it was very strategic. You know, during tech, it was like, Oh, actually we haven't got time to change for him to run across the back of the stage to do. Do a change in the quick change area, the nice safe quick change area and run across the side. So we're just going to, they just said, we're just going to take him off this side, do the change and come back on.

And I was like, well, I've got nowhere private to do this. And I spoke to the chaperone, the chaperone was like, yeah, no, we can't. So you go back and go, [00:34:00] look, we need to find a way to make this work time wise because they have to change in the safe space that's allocated. And we've got to find time to make it across, which they did because then everyone works together.

Stage management goes, okay, well, we'll hold everyone. So there's a clear way we'll light it. And they just kind of like questioned what to do. And you know, they're just figuring the word out, like chaperone one end, chaperone the other end. So they can kind of see them one in across. So there are, there are always ways to make it work.

But I think with an adult you would have gone, yeah, it's fine. We'll just find somewhere, you know, a bit out the way, but it doesn't matter. But you can't definitely can't do that with children.

Claire: Yeah, amazing. I mean, it boggles my mind thinking back to Oliver. I worked on that as well. and just the idea that It never crossed my mind that you had to dress 50 children.

I mean, it's stupid, but of course, of course you had to dress 50 children. But, um, yeah. The thing with

Charlotte: children is they grow though. Yes. Like you fit everything. Like, and then literally within three weeks, you're like, why are your trousers two inches too short? What's happened? So you're like, you'd like the stock you'd keep just to kind of, you know, keep up with wasn't

Claire: just 50 children.[00:35:00]

You've got a rotation, right? So it's actually what, a hundred and fifty children.

Charlotte: And I think they were broken up between, they had the orphans and then you had the gang kids. So there was a slight separation, but yeah, like the number of, when they used to come down at the start, cause all of them used to do the opening number, you're like, I've either got to move now, or I've got to, I'm stuck here for 15 minutes as they literally kind of like would pass you in single file to get ready to go on stage.

So many of them walking past, but yeah, but I mean, what an opening, like, it was absolutely phenomenal. It was extraordinary. Yeah, it was incredible.

Oren: I need a warehouse to store all of these costumes. Well, yeah, I mean, logistically. Storage,

Charlotte: there's never enough storage. Like, everyone knows it's like a pain when wardrobe, like, I need, I need more hanging space or I need, so we have gorillas in cabaret.

I was just going to say to

Claire: you, I mean, Drury Lane's one thing, but it's tiny backstage.

Charlotte: Yeah. Where are you keeping

Claire: everything?

Charlotte: Everywhere. Everywhere, [00:36:00] wherever there's a space. I've built a cupboard or got someone to build a cupboard or, you know, claimed it. It's, and they're like, and they're like, you still need more space.

I'm like, yeah, sorry. Got another gorilla costume coming. You know, like it's, but it's the same on every show I've done. Even on Drury Lane, you know, at Drury Lane, it's, um. You know, because it's a bigger show and then you've got the swings understudies, you need a certain number of spares in stock just in case, like you always need, and it, it always amazes me that like, you know, it's not kind of like, don't forget that wardrobe are going to be asking for extra space because otherwise it doesn't work.

And as you know, we were speaking about just beforehand, you know, sometimes cast members come back and you're like, well, we need access to. Those costumes are other costumes. So I mean, fortunately we've got a studio not too far away, but literally they're out the building. So we have to get out the building to go and collect them to bring them back in for at that point.[00:37:00]

Claire: That's

Oren: wild.

Claire: So what was your first show where you were? Head of wardrobe.

Charlotte: So, technically, it was the very first tour of 9 to 5, the last three weeks. I was wardrobe deputy and the head of wardrobe left for the last three weeks and I stepped up. So that was technically my, my first head of wardrobe, but it was Panto in Liverpool.

Um, was my first proper full length, you know, show that I had full responsibility for, which was great. I had a ball. I love Liverpool. It was so much fun. Um, it was Peter Pan. Yeah. We had crocodiles. We had Indians. It was great. Yeah. And then I did a few more on tour. I did the producers on tour. Uh, Annie Get Your Gun.

And then School of Rock was the first West End HOD gig that I had. Which was great. Again, it was, it was a really fun show. It was a really happy, happy company, you know, so it was a really lovely, lovely [00:38:00] place to work.

Claire: Does the nature of the role morph with each show or does that stay, you know, I feel like certainly my own role can morph a little bit.

It's always one to one. It's always dealing with voice, but actually the coordination with other departments changes, the way I'm working with people changes, does that, do you find that from show to show?

Charlotte: I, generally speaking, if you look at the bigger picture, for me, I would always set up the show in the same way.

I would always try and structure it in the same way, and I think from what I see of other shows as well, I think it's quite similar. I think it's It's the best and most efficient way. So I think to try and change it is problematic, you know, the best way that other departments can also, you know, all interlink.

So everyone knows what to expect. I think if you tried to set up a show in a slightly different way, it would ultimately throw up problems and issues. Obviously, each show presents its own thing, you know, [00:39:00] its own problem, as it were, um, Or think, or a specialist, you know, a specialist thing that you have to kind of educate yourself on a bit in terms of how to look after, but in terms of the general setup of it, I would always, it would always be the same, but maybe that's just because that's how I work.

And so that makes sense to me. I'd always think if I'm in charge, it's got to make sense to me because otherwise it won't make sense to anyone else. If I'm trying to pass it down, it's got to kind of be logical. And I've got to be able to make a decision.

Claire: You have, you have to work. To your strengths and to your, to what makes sense to you so that for as much as you're accommodating how other people work, you've got to be able to sit in your own space quite comfortably, right?

Yeah. In order to lead.

Charlotte: Yeah. And I'd always, you know, particularly at this point now, um, you know, on cabaret with coming up to another cast change seventh or eighth one, I think. And I actively encouraged my team to, you know, like when the new cast come in, we are absolutely supportive of. Things that they would like to do [00:40:00] differently.

We know the boundaries of what works and what doesn't. And they, we absolutely don't have to tell them they have to do it this way because that's how someone else has done that change. If we know we can do it in a different way, we can accommodate them and support them however they want. you know, ultimately people always come to me to make the final decision.

So I have to be able to go, this is what it is. And that has to make sense with how I'm working something, knowing the bigger picture of how that's going to affect something else or implement something else.

Claire: I wanted to ask you about Cabaret actually, because with this constant change of teams that is happening, um, there's also a lot of individuality.

With each performer.

Charlotte: Yeah. And I'm

Claire: noticing that the costumes are really morphing with, you know, Yeah, definitely.

Charlotte: So that comes from our incredible designer Tom Scott. So every time we have a cast change, I mean, sometimes it's, I think, let some performers get in contact and say, you know, they, they would like to try [00:41:00] something or they're not quite sure about a particular item of costume.

And then Tom kind of, you know, recreates it or redesigns it. It's always roughly within the same lines, but you know, it might just be a little tweak here and there, or sometimes he might be in a fitting and go, actually, I'd quite like to try something a bit different. Um, and then we have an incredible supervisor as well, and she's worked with Tom loads.

So I think they've just got this this shorthand between them where she knows what he's thinking and can just kind of implement it and then passes it down to us. And it's great now, because actually, because we know the show as well, I can kind of if I think practically there's gonna be an issue if I'm like, or we normally have quite a bit of problem with this because they're always doing this split leap or whatever.

Um, but I think it's great. So we need to put a gusset in whatever it might be, you know, then that could be built into the costume, you know, in the first place. So we kind of have less issues, but, uh, but yeah, but it's, it's a nice way to kind of keep the show fresh keeps us on our toes as well, you know, stops us from getting bored.

And, um, and it's nice that people feel [00:42:00] comfortable and happy and what they're wearing. And that is kind of, you know, they're not just feeling like they've been given a look that someone else has had and they're just kind of. taking it on. They're creating their own. Yes. Each character. Yeah. It's a new creation.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: I think that's true across the department, across the board. That there is room for that development of character. I think it's amazing. I love watching those tiny details changing because they, tiny details make such a huge difference. They do.

Charlotte: And the show is so up close.

Claire: Yeah,

Charlotte: you know, you're like you're, you're sitting in those front seat.

I mean, even if you're up in the gods, like you're still so close in comparison to some theaters. So everything reads like it really does. And so all the little details and stuff, it kind of, it makes it worthwhile because sometimes, you know, you'll go, can we change this button to this button on some shows?

And you're like, we can't see it. What's the point in doing that? But at least here, you know, the work that you're putting in, it's being. It's being viewed. Someone's going to be able to see it, which is lovely.

Claire: Absolutely. So have you been on [00:43:00] cabaret since the beginning? I have, yes. So you were involved in that, the whole translation of Tom's ideas into reality?

I

Charlotte: mean,

Claire: yes.

Charlotte: I mean, that, that role is kind of more the supervisor's role in terms of, You know, he creates it, he's drawn them all out and put them all on paper. And then Lucy was the one, Lucy Martin, is the one that brings it to life with Tom in the fittings. And then once they're created then they get passed on to me to make work on stage.

So, like on some shows, not so much on Cabaret to be fair, but you know, you'll get a costume and then they go, and we've got a 20 second quick change. And it's, you know, five layers, a corset, hooks and bars, you're like, well we're never going to get that done. So that's kind of where. I guess I would step in and my experience and knowledge and I would go, right, well, if we do this or if we undress this, we could put this on together.

Maybe if we change that fastening, we might be able to make that work in 20 seconds. So it's the practical implementation of the costumes is my role and the maintaining of it. Because, you know, these [00:44:00] costumes turn up so beautiful and new and you, you know, you might have to make them last a year. So it's trying to.

Keep them looking as good as possible.

Oren: How do you do that?

Charlotte: I can't give away my tricks of the trade. I mean, sometimes it is a case of going, you get six months in and you're like, we need to replace this. It's not working. And actually sometimes on, on cavalry, I've gone, Oh, you know, I'm not sure about this.

We've got a few holes. We've had to darn it. And Tom loves it. He loves the, like the run down look. He said it adds to the vibe of the cabaret club. So it's trying to find the balance of going. So is this cabaret suitable or is this actually just falling apart now? Like how far do I push it? But, um, yeah, it's like knowing all your laundry, like what could be handwashed, what can be dry cleaned, when to patch something, if you need to re embroider something, you know, all of those kinds of things, like the stock of fabric that we have in the building of all the scraps and off cuts, because most of it's.

90 percent of it is all custom made. There's not a lot of shop bought stuff at [00:45:00] all. So we get all the scraps, little pieces, you know, so that you can just replace, replace things here and there. Keep it going.

Claire: And are they specially commissioned fabrics or do you go out looking?

Charlotte: Some of them are, yeah. I know Tom's designed some of the, got a beautiful Devore fabric for one of the characters, which was designed by Tom, which was lovely.

And some of them are just shop bought fabrics.

Oren: And who goes and buys those?

Charlotte: So that's Lucy the supervisor and her team. So she's had an assistant who would go out, knows where everything is, finds all the shops.

Oren: Yeah.

Charlotte: Yeah, she's got all the knowledge. I mean, she's incredible. Her knowledge is like nothing I've ever known before.

So it's, it's lovely working with her as well. Cause I'm kind of like trying to get as much of that as I can because it's, uh. It's just incredible. But I love, that's what I love about, and particularly when you work on, you know, lots of different shows, you're always meeting all these incredible people, and they have amazing stories and amazing little tidbits of information and advice, and I'm just like, like trying to gain as much of it as I can, [00:46:00] because I think that's just wonderful.

That's what we do it for.

Claire: It's very inspiring, isn't it? Even just listening to people, even from other departments, for me, listening to you, I find that fuels what I do as well. It's like a better understanding of what goes on. Amazing. I was going to ask you about performers and their comfort levels in their costumes.

Like, right from sensory issues through to, can I sing in this? Yeah.

Charlotte: How do you deal with things like that? So, I mean, more often than not, you try and uncover as much as you can in the fitting process. Again, with Cabaret Now, we know what the show is, so there will be certain things where we go, so can you just do this move so that we know that you can move in it alright and that you're happy, don't feel too exposed or whatever.

Obviously at the start, when you're starting a new show, you might not know necessarily exactly everything, so often there's a bit of tweaking and changing, and sometimes you do just have to Go, this isn't working. We need to start again [00:47:00] and kind of find a different way to kind of create it. Um, I think performers generally will know they'll put something on particularly singers, you know, I think if I know they're singing in a, in a show, they would go to take a breath.

And if they felt restrictive, they'd go, Oh, this is too tight. Or can we just loosen it or can we do whatever? And in terms of kind of risque costumes, I guess, which we've had like on cabaret, you know, there's, I remember with all the Kit Kat costumes, we were like getting them on the floor, lunging, doing like squats and just checking to see what you can see, make sure it's all quite decent.

But yeah, but I think there's absolutely no point in creating a costume if a performer is not going to be happy with it because you're only going to continue having issues until it's resolved. So. If a performer doesn't like a particular feel of a fabric, then you need to resolve it. I mean, sometimes it's like you can line it with something and then that's better.

You know, it's not like you have to change, compromise on the look of it. There are definitely things that you can do to keep that. But sometimes when I was at college. So a [00:48:00] girl had to wear a hoodie and it was a velour hoodie and then she put it on. She went, I can't wear velour. And she literally just stood there and was like, I can't do this.

And we were like, yeah, no, it's okay. Just take it off and get you another one. It's fine. Because there's, you know, there's no point in making someone suffer. Yeah. Unnecessarily. Yeah. Yeah.

Oren: Yeah. I get that. There are some fabrics that just make my skin go.

Charlotte: So I, I, anyone who's ever worked with me will know I can't handle tight.

Oren: Right.

Charlotte: And that's part of laundry. You check the tights for ladders. So you literally put your hand in it and put them up. I can't, I can't do it. I can't. And people that know me well, just take the tights away from me. I'm happy to pair socks. I love pairing socks. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to do that. But tights? No, I can't.

Just can't do it. So I sympathize. I think I can understand where people come from. So I would never make them do something that I can't do myself.

Claire: Tights are really tricky, aren't they? My friends will laugh at this because they know I have a massive tights phobia. Oh really? Yeah, can't. And I cannot watch anybody get into them.

[00:49:00] I couldn't be a dresser because I can't watch people put on tights. Well, you're in the sight of it. No. I'm

Charlotte: a bit, so I could

Claire: do a woolly

Charlotte: tight. Yes, yes. A really tight design, that's not a problem. It's the nylon ones. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I just can't handle it. I can't handle it. And when you've got like, you know, a hole in the toe, so the toe's poking out.

Yeah. No,

Claire: can't. Or the seam's sitting in the wrong place. No, there's so many things that can go wrong with a pair of tights. Oh, the seam would annoy me. Yeah.

Oren: That would definitely annoy me. I think

Charlotte: for me, it was like, you know, when you were younger and your crotch used to hang down to your knee. Yeah. You know, because I weren't quite long enough.

I've got quite long legs. I think that's kind of where it started from for me. And then it's just got worse over time. I know what mine

Claire: was. Mine was swimming lessons. In Beckenham, funnily enough, uh, the Beckenham Baths, and being made to get changed straight into your school uniform afterwards. And we had knee high, woolly, kind of, um, scratchy grey socks, which I didn't like, even when they were dry, to be honest.

But then, putting those on when you couldn't find a dry bit of floor. Oh, no, yeah. That's where the whole thing, but then, yes. The crotches that come down. Yeah, this [00:50:00] whole conversation has made me very uncomfortable. Yeah,

Oren: I know. We've sort of descended into hell right

Claire: now. Oh, it's brilliant. Thank you so much.

No, not at all. For sharing your knowledge and your story. It's just fantastic to hear. No, not at all. Thank you for having me in. It's really wonderful.

Oren: So interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: We're not done with you

Oren: though. We would really love to know, the name of the podcast is The 5 Minute Call.

Charlotte: Okay. So

Oren: we would really love to know what you do.

At the five minute call

Charlotte: in theory the five minute call would be Getting people into costumes. Well, actually, no people should be in their costumes in theory. It would be lovely Or finishing off getting people into costumes that are trixie Um, and then it's calm and quiet everyone's remembered everything.

Nothing's broken last minute There's no running around whatsoever that in theory so you're just kind of waiting You Kind of near enough in where you need to be for the start of the show, or by the [00:51:00] performers in case they have any issues. But yes, in theory, nothing, because your work should have been done kind of from the half to the quarter.

Presets should have been done before that. But more often than not, it is the latter of, Oh my god, I've suddenly lost a sock, or the zip's broken on the boot, or we need to replace the shoelace. So often there's an element of, uh Just fixing and sorting. I was going to say, that sounds more like it. If you'd

Claire: said, it's actually, it's always calm, I'd be like, yeah, we've had performers on here and that is not what I say.

That's a chaos. Yeah, no,

Charlotte: generally speaking, it's um, and particularly at the Kit Kat Club, it's very, there's not a lot of space, so the performers come out, we have to get them into their Vilkerman capes, so everyone's in the corridor. Everyone's checking mics, you know, so it's very busy, which often leads to excitement and lots of chatter.

So it's quite a hubbub, which is lovely. It's a nice way to start the show, you know, with a bit of energy and everything. But yeah, often there's there's something going on.

Claire: There must be so many [00:52:00] places. That you have to work for cabaret because the entrances are all in different places and then you've got sub stage as well.

And

Charlotte: so everyone kind of there's there's four main plots. So I've got a team of nine together. We have a prologue company, obviously, as well, which performed before the show. So one person looks after them. There are four main plots. So literally you get to beginners and then they all disperse to, as you say, all the different places where people enter to get ready.

But, uh, but it kind of keeps it. And the team will rotate around the different plots, which is quite good. So they all know, know everything that's happening. But, uh, yeah, and you get to visit different people depending on what plot you're on, you know, depending on where you go and you get to meet other people, which is

Claire: quite nice.

What's the hairiest quick change you've ever had to do? As in? Get it all done. Not literally

I'm not talking about the gorilla.

Charlotte: Oh, I mean to be fair actually the [00:53:00] gorilla. It's a four person change there So it's I think there's something like seven or eight minutes, which for a quick change

Oren: that is

Charlotte: Plenty of time. Yeah, but this gorilla is a bit But you know, it's a beast. A huge thing that's made up of, you know, five, six different pieces.

So actually you probably, that's, that's one of them we started off and I was like, maybe two people. Let's allocate two people. And I was like, no, you know, 'cause you've got to hold certain bits of it whilst you hok another bit up and it's all popping together. So you're literally there trying to pop it.

The head's got to go on at some point, but you know, you don't wanna do that too soon because it's quite claustrophobic for the performer. And once they've got their arms in, they're completely incapable of. Doing anything basically, other than the number. So it's, um, you kind of got to be a little bit sensitive to that as well, in case they're like, no, I don't want to be standing around for ages, not able to do anything.

Um, if we can do it a bit later. So yeah, actually the gorilla, I mean, I've had, I've had many, uh, 30 second quick change, but I love it. I love those. I've had people call me sick before because I enjoy that. [00:54:00] You know, when you're like, literally like putting tights on, like going down to the whole shebang, changing it all.

And, um, it's just something. It's methodical about it and it's so satisfying when it, when you get them on stage on time and it's fine.

Oren: What happens if somebody is in a costume and they need to go to the toilet? Is there a protocol of getting them out of certain bits if they meet like the gorilla for instance?

And they just nap, is that it? The

Charlotte: gorilla is an absolute no,

Oren: that's a no,

Charlotte: absolute no. I've, you know, you've had it before where you're waiting to do a quick change and the performer's come off and gone, I've got to go to the toilet and they've just run and you're like, how are we going to do this? How are we going to get them done in time?

That's not how it always happens. You know, stage management, they're holding doors open. Someone extra's come over to give you a hand. It's, it's amazing. But yeah, it's, I mean, depending on the costume, there were very few costumes that you couldn't go to the toilet in. Quickly. But again, if you knew that your [00:55:00] costume was like an all in one thing, most people will preempt that and go to the toilet beforehand.

And then, and then they kind of at least can cover that period until they take that costume off.

Oren: Logistics. I mean, which is fair enough, but I feel like there's, uh, some use in knowing that early on. Yeah. I did

Charlotte: have, there was, I did a panto once and they put this trick dress in, Cinderella. So from her ragdress into her ballgown, this dress.

So it took me half an hour to preset it. It was all wires, all hooked up like it was a whole thing. And then it took 15 minutes to get the poor performer into it. And it was an epic, epic thing. And basically it was clever. There was a rose like, and she'd pull the rose out and spin and the whole thing just unravelled into this.

Massive ball gown. I mean, it looked amazing and you can hear the kids in the audience loving it. So you go, it's worth it But she did that to me once like, you know when you're like, oh and she went i've got to go to the toilet I was like, oh my god, i'm not gonna get this done inside But um, that was quite [00:56:00] a hairy one.

The first few shows of trying to get that done because you press the wrong thing It all sprung open before you got on stage and then I'd be watching her on stage You know sitting down standing up and I'm like, oh is it is it going? I don't know. It was alright We got it down to fine art by the end

Oren: So fascinated by some of these more intricate and complex ones like for instance in Frozen with the dress change I don't know I mean, you can take good guesses, like it's probably hooked up to something and it's got various different bits that pop open and it gets yanked off and whatever, but Incredible to, to think about the logistics of having to design something like that, build something like that, and then have it actually work.

Charlotte: Yeah, well I mean that's the magic of theatre though. Yeah. And I find, more often than not, like illusions are created with um, you know, set and lighting and stuff. It's very, it's not very often that it's costumes. So actually when it is costume, it's quite nice that. You're, you're a little part of the magic bit of people going, Oh my goodness, how did that happen?

Oren: Yeah.

Charlotte: I mean, [00:57:00] I still don't know. But when beauty and the beast was in town, you know, the beast transformation, that was a big secret. I think that's like NDAs or something. I'm not sure, but I think it's a big secret, but I love that. So where, where there's a little trick that's involved in costume, I always think that's quite exciting.

Claire: It's such a huge part of the storytelling, you know, you're so

Charlotte: integral

Claire: to the

Charlotte: It's quite a visual thing, you know, that everyone sees. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of it. Yeah. It's like, you know, of course jewellery, underwear, hats, stockings, shoes, so many pieces.

Claire: It's amazing. So we have a tradition on the podcast where, uh, in this book, the last guest has written a question.

Charlotte: Oh, okay. We

Claire: have not seen until this moment. So good luck to us all at this point.

Charlotte: Oh no.

Claire: No, it's lovely.

Charlotte: Okay.

Claire: What are you doing to ensure the next years of your life are the best years of your life?

Charlotte: Oh wow, that's a [00:58:00] nice one.

Claire: So nice. Totally makes sense when you know who wrote that.

Charlotte: I think I spent a long time being quite ambitious.

You know, I really wanted to kind of get to the head of wardrobe position. And I was keen to move around and do it all and I was keen to kind of keep progressing. And obviously I've, I got there a few years ago and I feel quite set and quite happy with the role now. And actually, I think that's the thing to go actually just take the time to enjoy it now and enjoy the shows and enjoy.

The people I'm with and making those memories and things, you know, I don't, you don't have to keep pushing, you can just stop and go enjoy where you are because, you know, sometimes there are shows that are just absolute treats to work on and I think sometimes you don't take it in and enjoy it enough because you're always thinking about the next one or this show's opening, should I be moving on, should I be doing this and actually sometimes it's good to just go, I'm happy where I am, I'm in a good place, I'm on a good show with good people [00:59:00] and let's just enjoy that for what it is because You know, it's not always the case and

Claire: yeah,

Charlotte: yeah.

Claire: No, it's lovely. It's lovely. It's just enjoying the view where you've got to, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I can acknowledge there might be other peaks you want to climb later. But yeah,

Charlotte: but actually, you know, just take it in sometimes and yeah, it's all right. It's all right. I'm happy to just sit still for a little bit.

Claire: Brilliant. Well, we wish you absolutely the best. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. This has been so fun.

Oren: So insightful. Thank you. We really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Five Minute Call. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button, like this video and ring the bell for notifications.

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Claire: If you are or have been affected by any of the topics discussed in today's episode, please see the show notes below for some helpful resources.