Jeremy Fisher: From Council Estate to Vocal Pedagogue

Claire: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The 5 Minute Call, the podcast that takes a deep dive into the stories of the people that make theatre happen. 

Oren: In this episode, we're talking to prize winning author, musician, vocal coach, and literal voice nerd, Jeremy Fisher of Vocal Process. 

Claire: Jeremy has authored an impressive array of books about singing and performance, from This Is A Voice, successful singing auditions, to How to Sing Legato, and many more.

Oren: Jeremy has presented all around the world, and for the first time is sharing his story from growing up on a council estate to becoming one of the most accomplished vocal pedagogues.

Jeremy: Members of the company, this is your five minute call. All beginners, please make your way to the stage. This is your five minute call. Your five minute 

Oren: call. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for joining us and for agreeing to come and talk about you and your life and your experiences. How did you get [00:01:00] into music?

Jeremy: I Was brought up in a council house. I'm a council house boy, and I went to the school across the road when I was six. There was really not much music at all in the family. We listened to radio, but that was it. Grandad was a, an amateur musician, but I didn't have much connection with him. So nothing up until the age of six, and at the infant school across the road, the headmistress heard me Heard someone play a tune on the chime bars in the corridor and all the notes were right and all the rhythms were accurate.

So she came out to find out who it was, and I'd gone, ooh, look, chime bars, and I was playing. And, um, so she came across the road to my parents and said, he must learn the piano. So that was really where it started. And my parents bought me a piano for six pounds. Um, I know, it was that bad, um, it was a semitone flat and out of tune, so I actually have very good relative pitch, but [00:02:00] occasionally it meanders down a semitone and I don't know where I am.

So I played that piano until I was 17 and got into music college, so that was the piano that I had, and um, I loved that piano. I, well, didn't love the piano, but I loved playing music. Did all my grades, so did grade 8 by 13. And, um, was one of those, oh, in my very first, okay, The Whole Piano Lesson story.

There was, I'm, I was born in Shropshire, I was born in a village in Shropshire, so it's real countryside thing. And there's very little, Shropshire's gonna hate this, but there's very little music going on. You know, we don't have a city, at all, in the whole county. We didn't then have a professional orchestra, so there was very little.

And, um, my, there was a piano teacher in the village, but he refused to take me because I was six. So that was January, I think, and by November, I was playing the piano by myself, and mum was going, you know, we've got to [00:03:00] get him into lessons, or, you know, he's going to learn bad habits. So this is absolutely genuine.

She went to one night and she said, I'm not coming back until I find you a piano teacher. And she walked around the next town knocking on doors looking for piano teachers. So she found one, who was prepared to take me, and would have been seven by the time I started lessons, which for a pianist is late.

And the piano teacher said, well, I normally do, I don't do the full 40 minute lessons, I do 20 minute lessons. And mum said, he's going to want the 40 minute lessons, and I did. And, uh, so that was, that was that really. I loved playing the piano. I completely involved in it. It was like my total, total life.

Total focus, total passion. Um, I do say, I was so focused on it I used to dribble. And occasionally I still do.

So completely focused on it. Loved, and also I got so bored with the exam. [00:04:00] Pieces because I was doing exam after exam and that was great because I needed the focus But I learned to sight read and so I would get books out of there It's a bit like I mean Julianne will tell you about her her book reading, but I used to love reading stuff So I got the whole of the Beethoven sonata three volumes and I sight read through them because I would be 12 Because that's what I loved doing and it was it was sort of it was interesting.

I was finding out how stuff worked That's that when I was nine My piano teacher's husband started giving me singing lessons, and I sang really well. I was a very high boy treble. Top E flat was my favorite note. Um, and so he said, I want to put you in for a competition. And I went, me, being completely oblivious, very shy, very sort of introvert, went, okay, you know, I'm being told by this person we're going for a competition.

So he put me in for King's [00:05:00] College Cambridge scholarships. Now, King's College is at least 150 miles away. I, it's the highest scholarship that you can get as a boy treble. And I had no idea. So dad drove me, I thought this is a very long journey. Dad drove me and we stayed overnight in a motel. And I went and did the scholarship and I won one.

And that was completely unexpected. So, I won the scholarship. That was, again, it was sort of January, February. And they said, because you haven't been to public school, you are way behind on French and Latin. Um, I was also going to be one of the oldest boys who did the scholarship. So, um, oh, and I have to tell you what I sang.

It's like the hutch part of this. I sang the solo to Once in Royal David's City, which is the thing in the King's College carol thing that is beamed all over the world. That's the only solo. So I sang it, but I wasn't happy with the key it was in, so I wrote it out transposed up a [00:06:00] third. Because of course.

Because of course. So I handed them my handwritten thing, going, I'd like to sing this up a third. So it went up to G's or something like that. So that was great, and we did all the exams and the English tests and the maths tests and what have you. I had completely oblivious. And then they announced the five scholarships at the end and I went, oh.

I've got one. What does that mean? Uh, what it means is that you go to King's, and, uh, you, it means you also The scholarship didn't even cover the clothing, let alone the fees. Bearing in mind I'm a council house boy from a one income family. So, couldn't go. And it was one of these really Should we go?

Should we do something? You know, what would happen? Didn't go. It's And I wrote about this in an article. It's the only time that You know, always we have crossroads points in our lives. We have decisions that we make and, you know, you either go with this or you go with that and you don't know what's [00:07:00] happening.

That's the only decision in my, pretty much my entire life, where I go, what would have happened? Because I would have had a phenomenal music education, but I also would have been away from my family. And those, and I was very close to the family, so those, they sort of outweigh each other. Anyway, so, eventually we turned the scholarship down.

Which I think is probably the first time that's happened. And after we turned it down, and I'd gone to the grammar school, we discovered there was a trust in Shropshire, that would have paid the whole thing. Oh no! No! So I still don't know. I mean, no, I do know, I do know. Because I wouldn't be the person I am now.

For sure. For all the trials and tribulations that I've gone through since then. Yeah. I think, 

Oren: no, I think it's fine. Were you aware of what was happening to feel anything in response to that, like disappointment or anything like that? Nightmares. Nightmares. 

Jeremy: Nightmares and hallucinations, yeah. Wow. [00:08:00] High, high stress.

High anxiety. Yeah. Because I didn't know what to do. And it was such an alien territory. Um, I did meet some of the boys when they were there. They were completely alien. They were all posh. I wasn't posh. So, it was a world, and also the whole I mean, in the interim, I was doing French and Latin with the headmistress at my junior school.

So I was learning on a one-to-one basis, which was terrifying. Um, and it was all that business of you are behind, you're behind, you're behind. And that does not suit me at all. So it was one of those really, really stressful times in my life. So yeah, it was a relief when we decided not to go, but it was always, it's always been what would've happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have to say, and this is gonna sound awful. I have met some of the scholarship boys as adults. I'm glad I'm not them. I'm glad I'm me. So, 

Claire: yeah. 

Oren: I'm glad too. And I've 

Jeremy: not met them. [00:09:00] 

Claire: Yeah. I so passionately believe that the paths we take inform the work we do. So, what happened next? 

Jeremy: What happened next was I went to grammar school.

And the music teacher hated me, which was, that's like, that was really tough because he didn't, I don't, I don't know. I honestly don't know what was going on, but, um, I don't know whether he thought I was stuck up or jumped up because I'd got this scholarship and then turned it down. I wasn't. It was just, I was being me.

I was very knowledgeable in a sort of horribly geeky, you know, Oh, that's the Tchaikovsky piano concerto in B flat minor. Number two, um, or whatever and I don't know but anyway, the music sort of didn't work So I was sort of stuck and I wasn't I wasn't then going to the church choir Anymore, so I was stuck there.

So no music really For a couple years and my piano teacher was getting older and older and [00:10:00] couldn't keep up with me So I had a couple of years where I did no music at all And then the music teacher changed and we had a new young guy and he was great. He was really good and I, I'm also, this is going to sound funny.

The grammar school and the girls high school merged at that point. I had people to talk to. It was brilliant. I loved being around the girls, loved it. And then music O level started, which was great. And he said. Great, you know, you're doing piano, but you need an orchestral instrument. So here's an oboe. And I went, I want to play the flute.

I went, no, here's an oboe. So I played the oboe. Got to grade 18, 18 months and then auditioned as a first study oboist at the Royal Northern College of Music and the Academy and Birmingham and, um, went as an oboist, so I'm actually oboe trained for two years. 

Claire: Second study piano. 

Jeremy: Second study piano, yeah.

Joint [00:11:00] first in all but name. Yeah. Um, that was the, and the Royal Northern was the only college. That I was allowed to do joint first essentially and also I was only 17 when I went I was 16 when I auditioned So a lot of talent. I don't know about how much finesse but a lot of talent And talent is great, but talent doesn't get you any further It really doesn't.

Claire: It's a starting place, right? Yeah, 

Jeremy: yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and yes, it's a head start, absolutely. But, in order to be in the industry, you need an awful lot more than talent. You need some determination, and you need some practice, and you need some reliability, and all of that. So, yeah, congratulations to the people who have talent.

I'm one of them. But, it doesn't take you much further than, hey, look at this. That's it. 

Oren: Which is really interesting, actually, because from, you know, Somebody that doesn't know the industry, you know, your regular. Rando Calrissian [00:12:00] Such a poor reference that nobody is going to understand. So we're going to completely cut that out We're going to completely cut that 

Jeremy: out No, don't cut it out, leave it in I have no idea what you mean, but 

Oren: it's fun It's in Lando Calrissian from Star Wars, but Rando Calrissian.

Wow. Anyway, right, right. Yeah No one's going to know that Do you know what, forget that whole thought train because I don't know where it was going All that aspect of playing It's completely gone now I don't know 

Claire: I think you might have been saying that, from the outside, you would assume that it is talent that 

Oren: is why we work so well together.

LAUGHTER That was the thought. Anyway, we can move on. LAUGHTER Yeah. 

Claire: So, how do we go from Royal Northern College of Music to musical theatre? Or do we take bends and turns? 

Jeremy: Oh, a lot of them. A lot. Okay, so, two years for Studiobo, had one of my front teeth out at the bottom. I [00:13:00] couldn't play the oboe, had the best time of my life, and I went, if I can't play the oboe and I'm enjoying it, then I should stop playing the oboe.

I'd done concertos and stuff, so you know, all that stuff, but no. And what I decided in the end was that the oboe wasn't quite a big enough instrument for me to express myself. Uh, so I changed on to first study piano, which no one ever does. And, uh, Then I, I really wanted to be an accompanist. I met one of the teachers there, and in a five minute conversation on the steps of the concert hall, I went, you understand me?

Can I just say not many people understand me? Or at least somebody who actually does understand me, which is great. But there's a handful of people who actually understand me, and I went, he got me within three minutes, and I just went, great. 

Claire: What was the conversation? 

Jeremy: It was a conversation about accompaniment, because he is a professional, was a professional accompanist.

And I just, I'd been doing it sort of bits and pieces because, [00:14:00] um, as an oboist who plays the piano, I knew about breathing, I knew about wind playing, I knew about the repertoire. And because I was a good pianist, people were going, can you play this for me, can you play this for me, can you play this? And I was doing concerts with them at the college as a second study pianist.

And I just went, I really enjoy this. I really enjoy working with people. And just sort of creating music with someone else. I love that. 

Claire: Do you think that was in some way a reaction to sort of being on your own playing music as a child? 

Jeremy: Great question. Hmm, ooh, if I said Okay, if I said to you one of the nice things about being a collaborative pianist, which is the new name for it, um, because as an accompanist I never followed.

People don't follow. The whole thing about an accompanist or collaborative pianist is that you actually know what someone's going to do before they do it. So you're ahead of them. And then [00:15:00] honestly, you can decide whether you're going to go with them or whether you're going to push them somewhere else.

Yeah.

So yeah, the The nice thing about working with someone else is that they are making decisions about the music. They're making decisions about what they want. And I am going, I'm there like this, going, Is that a good decision? Should we go there? Shall I? Actually, if you do that decision, I can support you here, and I can push you in that direction, and we can expand here, we can do all sorts of things.

All of that is going on in my head while I'm playing. And I love that. I love interacting with people and going, Oh, you want to go there? Great, let's go! What is so odd is, I actually wrote this down yesterday, I've never thought of myself as an improviser. Because when I'm playing piano, I don't improvise, I sight read, that's my skill.

But as a, as a collaborative pianist, you improvise all the time. As a vocal coach, you improvise all the time. Anybody that [00:16:00] Comes into a coaching session, my first reaction is, Hello, who are you? And what are you bringing me? What should we do, together? Where do you want to go? And I think that's lovely, because you're always responding to the person in front of you, you're responding to the situation, you're responding to the whatever, and you are solid enough in your own techniques, and in your own knowledge, that you go, I have a vast handbag of things here, what would you like me to pick out of it?

And I love that. Okay, so. Back to the question. So the question was, How did I get from oboist to musical theatre? So I did, I changed over to collaborative pianist, to accompanist, and there was an accompanist course there which was amazing. Three years I did, I was six years at music college. It's enough to kill off the musical instinct in anyone.

Um, 

Claire: I'm saying nothing. So I 

Jeremy: was purely classical [00:17:00] collaborative pianist with a vast repertoire. My goal was to play everything that I could at college so that when I went into the profession I would be ready for anything. Left college, got no work at all. Despite the fact I played for 17 people's diplomas, they never asked me.

And you just go, okay, there's a sign in there somewhere. Um, I rang up, this is in the book, this is in the, um, Why Do I Need a Vocal Coach book. I rang up Opera North, which was the closest opera company, because I love working with singers, and I like stage work. What can I do? I'll be a rehearsal pianist for opera, I know.

Um, rang them up, and I said, word for word. I'm a really wonderful pianist. You must employ me. And they said, yes, dear. Send us your CV and we'll audition you in 20 years time. Or when someone dies, absolutely word for word. And I just went, I love this [00:18:00] place. I love that answer. So I sent the CV in and, um, a few months later, I didn't get an audition, but a few months later, they recommended me to do.

The European premiere of Carmen Jones at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield, which was my first job. And, they hadn't heard me, and the MD was Jeremy Sams, who I got to know very well afterwards. And, he said, oh, you know, come and have a chat, before we start. So I went in, no piano, didn't hear me play, nothing, it just sort of, we were in a changing room.

And he went, oh, no, you know, you've just won a prize, I won the um, Britain Peers. A company's prize at 21. He just won that. He said, oh, I won that. I know what standard you are. Come and have the job. So that was my first job, Carmen Jones at the Crucible. Great job, amazing music, until you have to transpose it all.

That was my first day, was they said, oh, can you play the Toreador song down a tone in E flat minor? 

Claire: And could you? [00:19:00] 

Jeremy: Not that day I couldn't. The following day I could. I can probably still play any flat minor now. But it's like, wow. And then the second day, Oh, can you play Beat Out The Rhythm On A Drum, which is Carmen's big thing with the ensemble, down a fourth?

And I went, no.

But you have to have a go. It's like, or you don't come back. So yeah, that was that. Then I got involved in Opera North and I did a year or so as a freelance opera repetitor with them, got headhunted to Scottish Opera to go and rep for them, was actually offered a job there and turned it down, and then I moved to London and then I started musicals!

Wow, 

Claire: okay. And how old are you by this point? 

Jeremy: I would be Twenty five. 

Claire: Wow, that's a lot to have packed in by twenty five. 

Oren: It's, it's, wow. 

Jeremy: I, I still have my [00:20:00] old diaries from the, the, that period, twenty five to thirty. Yeah. When I was doing lots of musicals in London. And, um, I can't believe how much I did. But it wasn't about, oh, you know, it was just, people are offering me jobs, I need to take it.

Yeah. At one point, almost, almost, somebody told me this, when you move to London and you're a new face, you're offered everything. At one point I was holding down three musicals at the same time, which was really fascinating. So I was rehearsing with the Doily Cart during the day, I was understudy pianist for The Sneeze with Rowan Atkinson, and I was also understudy pianist for, um, Rejoice with Maureen Lippman about Joyce Grenfell at the Fortune, same production company.

And I went, what happens, what happens if somebody goes off, somebody falls ill? I mean, what, because the, the rejoice thing was Maureen Lippman and Dennis King, and it was just the two of them on stage. So I was learning all the piano accompaniments. [00:21:00] Scripts, accents, at one point I had to be underneath the piano playing it upside down.

Which is very weird. And, and I said, what's gonna happen if Dennis falls ill? You know, and I'm supposed to be on this show, what happens? And they went, don't worry, we'll close one of the shows for you. 

Oren: Okay. 

Jeremy: Okay. 

Oren: Okay. Okay. Let's just close the show. 

Jeremy: Thankfully I never had to do it. Uh, cause that was a roast.

But I did do the sneeze. Um, once, uh, it was actually the last but one performance of the run. I did the sneeze, and I was I should tell this, again, this is in the book, but I tell the story. Um, when they offered me the job, I was very, very brave, I think, in my world, and I said, you can't afford to pay me enough money to sit in the theatre and wait to see if I'm on.

So here's what we'll do. I'll ring the theatre at [00:22:00] quarter to seven and see if I'm on. And then I'll come in and do the show if I am. And they went, great! So I thought, good. So I was in the sauna, um, that night. And I thought, ooh, don't know what time it is, I'd better get out. Ring the theatre, yes, you're on.

And I went, no, it's April Fool's Day, you're joking me. He went, no, you're on. Michael's got food poisoning. And I went, okay! So, threw some clothes on, got into the theatre, and I was just too, I need to get there, to be nervous. Ran into the pit. Because it was just piano, it was all solo piano. And it was all piano music in the style of All the Russian composers.

It was an amazing score written by Jeremy Sams right, who was really pleased to find out I was the understudy. He didn't have anything to do with it, and I just started playing and the cast had never heard me play, so it was like it was real. No one knew what was gonna happen that night. It was very nice.

That was fun. The [00:23:00] only, the only thing that I did wrong was, um, that the sneeze, which is, it was eight checkoff plays and the sneeze is the title one. And it's all mime. And we know how good Rowan is at mime. And so the whole thing was silent, except for Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake type. Ballet music, which is lovely to play, and um, It was going really well until the last three pages, and I played it faster.

Quite a lot faster than Michael did. And he had all the business to fit into musical cues. Apparently, the whole cast, the whole cast, collected on the side of the stage, and watched him run. And he was leaping over furniture. That was fun. So yeah, and everybody's in the cast said it was a setup just to allow me to play a show and I went no way If it had been I would have been in the theater in the morning.

Yeah practicing everything But yeah, so that was my first show in the West End 

Oren: [00:24:00] Yeah, 

Claire: have you ever experienced nerves 

Jeremy: yes, I have experienced stage fright once it's Horrifying. I was asked to play for a jazz singer In Birmingham, for um, big, one of these big celebrity concert things, and it was just playing for her.

And, I don't improvise on the piano. And I said to the organizer, I don't improvise on the piano. And he said, don't worry. You know, I've told her it's absolutely fine. You know, just going to play standard version. So got to the rehearsal on the day. Oh yeah. And then this is your 64 bar solo. And then we're going to do this and then we're going to do that.

And I. Absolutely freaked, because the idea of me going on stage and not being prepared is horrific. And also being asked to do something in public that I can't do, or I thought I couldn't. Um, so we got to the moment where she was going on. I [00:25:00] actually had to be pushed on the stage. Literally shoved on, because I was so terrified.

Sat down at the piano, and I thought this is just going to be a disaster. The best thing I can do is to bounce around a lot on the piano stool and look like I'm enjoying it. Couldn't do anything else. So I sort of, I fiddled about a bit with the tune, I got to my 64 bar solo, fiddled about a bit, added a few notes here and there, bounced around and looked like I was having a ball.

Fooled 90 percent of the audience. Really fascinating the organizer came on and went that was amazing and I went that's the worst I've ever played in public in my life So yeah, yeah. Yes stage fright is a horrible thing. Yeah, and it's really interesting because Ultimately, it's the boat is pointing the wrong way The boats pointing towards how am I gonna do rather than?

How is the audience gonna feel or or how is the singer working or you know all of that? [00:26:00] Boat Pointing the Wrong Way is a really interesting one, where people talk about overthinking, and often it isn't overthinking, it's what's going to happen. Boat's Pointing the Wrong Way. It's not what's going to happen, it's how do I bring what I do to this situation.

Yes. It's so interesting. It's also, I mean, ultimately it's also, it's a sort of, there's an element of lack of belief in yourself. This is crucial to performers. You have to have a belief in yourself. For me, all good performers have a killer instinct of some kind where whatever they're doing in the day goes out the window and you do, that's like, that's your responsibility.

That, I think that was the issue, is that because I didn't believe in myself as an improviser, particularly not in public, I couldn't see myself going on and doing this. It's really fascinating, and I've never thought of myself as an improviser until [00:27:00] somebody said, but you improvise all the time in your coaching sessions.

All the time. I mean, like, all the time. And I went Oh, you're right. Yeah, completely changed my view. I still don't feel great as a piano improviser, but I think that's more a practice thing, and I don't know the techniques more than I can't. 

Claire: Sure, yeah. Yeah. I think having had a rigorous musical education, as you most certainly did, At music college, what we're given there, especially in the classical world, is handrails.

Like, this is how this goes, this is how this goes, when you see this, do this, when you see You know, artistry as well, of course, but handrails. And so you become a musician who is a little bewildered when those handrails aren't there, right? 

Jeremy: I would go further. 

Claire: Yeah? 

Jeremy: Please let me go further. Go, 

Claire: go. 

Jeremy: You are told as a classical musician that whatever you do is wrong.

Claire: [00:28:00] Yes. 

Jeremy: And it's like that's less wrong and that's less wrong and that's more wrong And it's really interesting because I love you're using handrails, but I'm thinking prison bars It's so strict and even I mean, you know my my Original piano teacher at college just stopped short of the ruler on the back of the hands just But it's very interesting that there's there's so I think once you get into contemporary commercial music, musical theatre to a slightly lesser extent, but much more than classical, is that we find who you are as a person, and we find who you are as a voice, and we find who you are as an emotional being, and who you are as a storyteller.

Particularly as a storyteller, it's got to be your version of that story, even though it fits within a genre, or it fits within a play. In classical music you have, it feels like to me, you have a [00:29:00] series of strictures that say this is how this music works, this is what the composer told us, even though the composer has been dead 350 years.

But this is how it goes, and you are outside that, and therefore that's wrong, so we must bring you into, well, do you know one of my favourite pieces of music? Um, it is Philippa Giordano singing Casta Diva from Bellini's Norma as a pop singer. At pitch, it's absolutely brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant, because she sings it totally within her own style.

She sings it completely on the key, on the notes, as written, going up to high Ds all of that stuff. With the occasional extra riff as well, and I love it. And I know perfectly well for the classical singers that will put the cat among the pigeons. Because it's like, but it must be sung like this. And I'm going, but it mustn't.

And I've always had that. Sort of, it's lovely you telling me [00:30:00] all of these rules, and I will do my best to follow them. But actually, there's more to it than that. I talk about music envelopes. So, every piece of music has an envelope. These are the strictures, if you like, but they're guidelines. So if you do a performance within that piece of music's envelope, then it works.

And that envelope contains all sorts of areas and gaps and corners and all sorts of things that you can do within the envelope. And it still works. And that's how the music was. Written to be sung because normally a composer has either a specific singer in mind or a type of singer in mind When they write something where it gets fun is if you take it outside the envelope and then you you bring your style features into that piece and it changes the music and Fusion stuff is just so on trend at the moment and I love it Because you hear things that are [00:31:00] so creative and you hear a song that's been Pulled out into a different shape and I love that because people find things in songs They find things in music, which is why I love music so much it because it's a it's a form it's a genre if you like that has the possibility for creativity within it and Truth within it and boy we can talk about truth and authenticity for a long time So yeah that Where were we?

Claire: I'd love to ask, did you feel some sense of ease or relief coming into musical theatre having been in a classical world? Do you think you felt that change then, or has that grown on you? 

Jeremy: Immediately, I loved the people. Immediately, I loved the genre. Because the genre is story based. And I discovered I'm a writer.[00:32:00] 

And I love words. Love. Love the use of words, the exchange of words, meanings of words, love, all of that. Um, so it was that combination, and the fact that musical theatre, I truly believe that musical theatre contains the widest range of genres in the world. Because we go from classical, to rock, to contemporary, to weird and out there, and everything in between.

It's like people say, oh, musical theatre style, and I won't go, which one? Which one? Because somebody's singing this show, and we've had that, I've had this, I've had clients go, I'm singing Phantom in the Day, and I'm practicing Rent, you know, at night. Or, um, you know, whatever, you know, it's like, pick a name, really.

And it was also the idea that actors, musical theatre, singers, I'm very hot on [00:33:00] this, the drama comes first. The story comes first because that's the genre. When you go to, and I coach classical and musical theatre and contemporary commercial side by side, and they have different things. Contemporary commercial is about the vibe.

It's like, that's it. It's about the vibe. Musical theatre is about the story. And all the sounds that you make in musical theatre are linked to the story. It's great if you can make a hundred and fifty different sounds, congratulations to you. But, if they don't fit the story, if they don't match the story, if they don't express the story, please stop doing it.

Opera. Sound. Yeah. Sound, phrasing, architecture, um, There's some story in there somewhere. Until the aria. Laughter. 

Oren: This is why I love musical [00:34:00] theatre. We've sort of jumped ahead and gone round the back a bit. But I want to just understand how you get from music to Singing and vocal pedagogy. Yes, there's something in here that I think Leads us nicely back to musical theater where ultimately is where we want to be.

Okay, great. Yeah, talk to me 

Jeremy: about that Yeah, um, you have to go back to college. 

Oren: Okay 

Jeremy: so I was playing for people and I played for a lot of singers loved working with singers and The coaching side of it came in because I got so frustrated It's like, I know how this music works. Why are you not singing it in the way that the music works?

And at one point I went, oh for heaven's sake, can you just sing it like this? And the singer went, oh, that's really good. And I went Oh, oh, there's a career in me insulting people. [00:35:00] Oh, that's really interesting. What was so fascinating is that I was saying things that I thought were blindingly obvious, and they weren't.

And they absolutely weren't. So it was this, this thing about understanding Music and structure and background and emotion and shape and energy. Actually, what it boils down to is energy, ultimately. And going, I can also describe it to you in a way that will work for you. And I wouldn't say the same thing to you that I would to somebody else.

Because they're bringing their thing and I this is I think where I absolutely live and it's not just in music But I made a speciality of it in in musical theater because it's so obvious to me so obvious how things work and how they link to the story and the sort of sounds that you make and the sort of Phrasing the sort of energy points troughs within a song and all of that That I ended up coaching people Out [00:36:00] of self defense, really.

Because I so wanted it to work, and it so wasn't. And I felt, uh, this is gonna sound so weird, but I feel a responsibility to the music to make it work, and I don't care how it works, as long as it works. And actually, that goes That's not just music, that's also script, it's also text, it's books, it's Conversations, it's podcasting, it's all sorts.

So I always bring that to whatever I'm doing. Part of it was wanting the music to work. Part of it was wanting the singer to work. Part of it, part of it was going, please can this all work? I'm so fed up with it not working. And so I, it was actually Janice Chapman, I used to play for Janice for all of her opera lessons.

In fact, I was her lodger for some time. So, you see, go down the stairs, play the pieces, go back up again. Um, and that was fun, that was really interesting. And I've always been fascinated by the way singing teachers teach singing. Um, because as an [00:37:00] instrumentalist, and particularly as an oboist I could take my instrument apart.

I did. I freaked my mother out. She arrived home one day and I had the oboe in bits on the front porch. Put it all back together again. I mean, the thing about being a singer is that you can't go to the shop and buy a new one. You can't take it out and replace it with something else. So you have to work with what you've got.

And I was always fascinated by how singing teachers work. And also, this is going to sound strange, how few singing teachers actually teach technique. What they tend to teach is style and interpretation and choice, but they don't necessarily teach technique. And I came across maybe three singers who taught technique.

Julianne was one of them. And so Janice said she knew I was interested in all of this. And she said, you want to go and do an Estill course? Cause Joe Estill was coming. She, it was the, I think only the second course that she did in the UK. And she went, go on that. And I went on it. I went, Oh [00:38:00] yeah. Yeah, this is good.

The work is good. Um, so I then started finding out all about how voices worked and then applying it to my musical knowledge or coaching knowledge. And I have always seen myself as a coach. I am not a singing teacher. Ironically, I can teach singing. But I'm not a singing teacher because of the mentality that I have and the background that I have is I am working towards the final performance.

I think of a singing teacher as being a voice builder. And I think of a vocal coach as being a performance builder and to me It's so interesting because I'm when Julianne and I work together I think of her as being along the extreme of voice teacher at vocal of Singing teacher and me being along the extreme of vocal coach and we meet in the middle So because we compare ourselves to each other.

I know I'm not a singing teacher She knows she's not a vocal coach, but we have each other to compare to and also to work together [00:39:00] To work with so in answer to your question 

Claire: Very good at holding these thoughts 

Jeremy: Have a really specific follow up question In answer to your question Um the pedagogy side of it.

It's all about clarity I love clarity. I love being clear with people with myself with things By the way, I do see things as being Animate objects, so I'm very good with locks by the way if you ever get locked in I'll be able to get you out. 

Claire: I just might take a while to get to it. I literally just 

Oren: bought a lockpicking kit.

And it's the most fun I have ever had. Just because I wanted to see if it was possible. Should you be revealing this? Note to my editor, 

Jeremy: let's cut that bit. Note to your editor, let's keep it in. [00:40:00] Um, yeah, so I see, it's all about energy. But it's also about clarity, and I, it goes right back to when I was 18, 19 at college, wanting to be clear, wanting, and wanting things to work.

I am, it's a very powerful driver for me to want things to work. Um, and it doesn't matter whether they're people or things, I want them to work. Uh, and I get very, very annoyed when they don't. So, the whole pedagogy thing was, what can, what can we do to help people understand what they do? That's really what pedagogy is.

Um, and so when I got together with Gillian, which would be 1996, I think we did our first, we, we hosted a huge course, 120 of the best singing teachers in the country in 1997. So, we first met, oh, can I just tell you how we, how I met Gillian? I 

Claire: was, I was really anxious to ask and then I was like, is that in the remit?

Absolutely. [00:41:00] Yes, please tell us that. Okay. 

Oren: It's going to be really interesting if Gillian's story is any different. No, it'll be the same. No, she, she tried to throw me out of 

Jeremy: a course. 

Oren: Okay. Okay. Alright. 

Jeremy: This is juicy. 

Oren: Oh yeah. 

Jeremy: Um, so the story behind that is I had already done an Estill course the previous year, which she hadn't been on, because she'd done one the year before that.

And she was already very heavily involved in it. But she wasn't there at that course, so they brought an American guy over, Steve, who was sort of co leading with Jo. And, um, Steve then did a course the following year with Gillian. In the Hoban Center in London. And I wasn't on the course, I hadn't signed up for it, but I'd just finished a musical tour.

I don't know which one, probably Calamity Jane. Um, and I thought, ah, you know, I've got some time. I'll wander in, say hi to Steve, and just say hello to everybody. Because I'd been hearing about Julianne, but never met her. So at that point, I'd shaved my [00:42:00] beard off, I'd cropped my hair, and I was wearing contact lenses instead of glasses.

Nobody recognized me. So I wandered in, and she says this, Hoban Center was also a center for tramps. So she thought I was a tramp. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Alright. She thought I was a tramp, so she came storming down the aisle to throw me out. Ha 

Claire: ha ha ha ha ha! And how did you persuade her otherwise? 

Jeremy: Um, I spoke.

Claire: Okay. 

Jeremy: And then people who were in the class who'd been in the previous one with me recognised my voice. Yeah, 

Oren: I was gonna say, yeah. 

Jeremy: So, uh, and they went, oh no, that's Jeremy. So, yes, and then she took me out for dinner. 

Oren: As an apology? As 

Jeremy: an apology, yes. 

Oren: Nice. Nice. 

Jeremy: Yeah. And we worked together well before we got married, so we were working together in 96, we got married in 2000.

Okay. 

Claire: This episode is sponsored by Vocality, a specially formulated blend of tea for professional voice users. Each ingredient has been [00:43:00] carefully selected to help you soothe and take care of your voice. The tea is naturally caffeine free, suitable for vegans, and does not contain any artificial flavors or colors.

Vocality is the secret to vocal clarity in a cup. Talk to me about 

Oren: neurodiversity. Oh ho ho ho kay. Because there are so many elements of what you have said across your entire life that immediately to me are like, this is something special, this is something special, this is something special. I'm curious as to your perspective.

Jeremy: Hmm. 

Oren: On neurodiversity and yourself. 

Jeremy: Undiagnosed ADHD. Okay. The more I read about it, the more I go, Got to be. Got to be! Like, every time I read anything about symptoms, about the way people think, or the way that people develop ideas, or anything like that, and I'm going, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and maybe not, yes.

Um, it answers a lot of questions for me. I am [00:44:00] sure I've published this, but if I haven't, you can be the first. I want one word on my gravestone mystified. I am completely mystified by people, life, human beings. They don't make sense to me at all. You can feel very alone when you are mystified by the people around you.

And also as. You might not believe it, but I am actually quite shy and quite introvert. Except on microphone, because I love microphones. Um, and I love conversation. But yeah, I'm actually quite shy. And, in fact, so shy that when I did concerts as a child, as a pianist, I wouldn't say anything. Mum would have to get up on stage and introduce the pieces for me, because I just could not say anything.

So I never quite understood what was going on for the whole of my life. And, I don't know whether that, I mean that's obviously, that's had an impact on the way that I do things, the type of things that I do. [00:45:00] Um, even buying the house we're in now, um, we were on holiday. It was the cheapest holiday I could find because we were so broke.

And, uh, we hired a house in The next town up from us in Herefordshire, um, just over the border into Herefordshire. And we wandered around and, you know, chilled, which is great. And then we looked in the estate agent's windows and went, What?! Because we've been living in London. We can have how many houses for this?!

Yes. So, uh, yeah, we were living in London. And then we saw this house. It was actually the only house we went in. We we've sort of looked at several from outside and went no and we saw the house We're in right now and we went in and we went gosh. This house has been built for us It's like that room is this and that room is this and that room is this and the I love this How middle class the only decision we had to make was which room should we put the grand piano in?

So yeah, [00:46:00] and and then I stuck my head out of the window out of the back door And there's a river in the garden with a weir in it, and the sound, the sound of trickling water, and I went, Apparently, Gillian saw my face, and she went, Okay, that's it. That's it, he's gotta stay, he's gotta be here. Um, and it was the sound, that sound, and I went, I want that sound in my life.

Very interesting every so often I go I want that X in my life and and then it's like it's gonna happen So yeah, very interesting podcasting was one by the way. I need a podcast. We're going to do a podcast Julian said really? And I went, yeah, we're gonna do a podcast. So yeah. And 

Oren: it's a 

Jeremy: very good podcast.

Yes. Thank you. Plug it. Plug it. Go on, tell us about your podcast. This is a voice. It's the, it's the same name as the book that we wrote. And, uh, this is a voice. And it's a really interesting one because as I say in the description, we talk about Singing and voice all the time and we just left the [00:47:00] microphone on, that's really what it's about.

And so it's a conversation between the two of us and we, we bring guests in sometimes and sometimes we don't. And sometimes we do exercises from the book just to show people how to do them and sometimes we don't. But mostly we talk to each other. 

Claire: But I would say it's so much more than that from, from the last, I've been listening probably for about a year.

Um, it's so much more than that. For singing teachers, uh, it is a. a community and You signpost, you know, there's you've had one way you've been talking about marketing or how you put your business together You know, it's so much more than a chat about voice. It really is a An opportunity to feel like oh these these are the people who understand what my life looks like, you know And sharing those ideas and it's fantastic 

Oren: It comes back to the the the kind of global idea of Coaching and advice giving beyond just singing 

Jeremy: there's something else as well behind it Which is [00:48:00] and this is an ethos that both of us have shared Since 1996 since we actually got together which is sharing.

We want to share the information In fact, our byline for years was sharing information, promoting expertise. I don't understand people who create something that is really good and really powerful and then sits on top of it and goes, The only way that I'm going to teach this to you is if you pay me 10, 000 to come and work privately with me.

Go away. That's not appropriate. I also, by the way, think it is appropriate for us to get paid. And it really annoys me when somebody puts out a full technique course for 10. It's like you are devaluing the whole of singing training if you are going to charge that little. It's a profession, remember that.

So yeah, but it's all about sharing. And in a way, the podcast, for me, I quite like finding out about modes of communication. So, [00:49:00] we wrote, I've made DVDs, I've made online videos, I've created e books. It, to me, this is just an, it's um, it's a format that has its own joys and pain, particularly when you're learning it.

But it has its own format, and therefore there are certain things that fit different formats. It's like, okay, Well, that would fit a DVD. Well, I'd better learn how to make a DVD then. And podcasting was the same. In podcasting, you get to know the person, you get to know the interaction, you get to know the vibe.

I think more than anything else, and that's what I love about it, it's a conversational medium. Again, something you just said within that just brings me 

Oren: back to I mean, to me, that it seems like across your life, the way you were describing your, your early start with music felt very savant. And then as you evolve into that, it's, it's, I suppose ADHD, it's obsessing about the, this one thing, I need to do this one thing, and you achieve that, and you've done it, and then you get, [00:50:00] okay, now I've got this other thing, and now I need to do this other thing, okay, I've achieved that.

Oh, but now I've got this thing, and it's this continual cycle of piquing interest, diving so deep, and then something else will happen, and going into that as well. 

Jeremy: I'm a concept person. Yeah. So you give me the concept, if I understand the concept. First of all, I won't do a thing, at all, until I understand the concept.

It doesn't matter how hard you push me, if I don't understand why I'm doing it, I will not do it. Because in order for my I have a life coach In fact, we both have the same life life coach, but we see him separately because he can't cope with

Somebody said to me very early on you're an intense person and I'm going no I'm not yes I am Yeah, there's a level of intensity and this is the This sort of in I'm back on energy again. Energy is my thing right now. I think it well, of course it [00:51:00] underlies everything because everything is energy, but there's something about sort of flavors of energy.

Um, I gather I'm an unusual type in that I'm high energy, but I'm not high energy. I'm intense energy, but not high. And also, I have the ability to feel stuff and then explain it. So it's the combination of awareness and verbalization. And it's why I think I write well. Because I experience stuff and then I can explain it and break it down.

And I love doing that. Um, hyperfocus, not as much as I used to. I'm getting better at it now. I used to do. I used to dribble. Yeah. I don't dribble quite so much now. I'm not dribbling right now. That's good. So yeah, hyperfocus, yes. So often [00:52:00] Oh gosh, it's like And this is really weird. This is the thing I'd like to change.

I have such a high level of responsibility. I hear something, I see something not working, I feel something not working, and I go, I have to make that work. And that means that it becomes my responsibility to make it work, and that is not healthy. So 

Claire: Does that responsibility affect your confidence? In other words, do you internalize that?

If something's going wrong, do you assume you're part of the problem? Or are you seeing it from the outside and thinking, that's going wrong, I know how to fix it, I'm going in. 

Jeremy: I don't know I've ever considered that. That's quite an interesting question. I'm gonna answer that with a different thought, because it might shed light on it.

And there's a very specific instance of it that really says it to me. I was playing for a set of auditions, um, for an opera company, and people came in, they sang their arias, that was all fine, [00:53:00] whatever they were doing, and then they had to do a piece of script. And time after time after time, they couldn't make it work.

They just didn't know what they were saying. They didn't get the humour. They didn't get the turn of phrase. They didn't get the meaning. And after 20 people, I was climbing the walls. Because I want, it's like, I feel now I have to say it to the panel. Because I have got to make, this thing has got to work.

And the 21st person came in, nailed it. It's like, ah, that was wonderful. And I just went, and now I don't have to do it anymore done. So in a way, although I quotes take responsibility for it, I don't, it's like, I'm so desperate to hear things working properly. I don't care who makes it work properly. I really don't.

If you can make it work properly, if somebody else can make it, if somebody else comes in and makes it, love it, love it. And then I can just. Relax, that does sound very ADHD, doesn't it? Very [00:54:00] autistic. Yes, I don't know. Um, uh, I don't have a diagnosis. So, but interestingly, I think I'm more on the ADHD side than the autistic side.

Oren: Probably got like 20 minutes left and there is so much. I think we might even have to do, probably have to invite you back to be fair. But 

Claire: part two with Jeremy. 

Oren: Anytime. Because I would really love to, oh my gosh. Like books and publications. Yes, and Where you've presented all around me, there's just yes the fact that your vocal folds are famous I mean, there's just so many they have a life of their own 

Jeremy: Okay, 

Oren: I think I have a maybe a route here Probably skipping ahead a little bit You've played for something around 8, 000 auditions.

That was 20 years ago, yeah. Okay, you've played for something around a million auditions. About that, yeah. 

Jeremy: Give or take a hundred thousand or so, yeah. 

Oren: My question [00:55:00] is, and again, because we've sort of, we're sort of jumping around a little bit and we're missing some Pedagogy stuff in the middle, but we know that you're an expert voice person.

Yeah. Are there any rules, or things that you've observed, or little nuggets that you've taken away from being present in that many auditions that you would want every performer going into that situation to know? Written two books about it. And this is why we're here. Because 

Jeremy: the books were the next bit that I was going to get 

Oren: onto.

Jeremy: Yes, there are. Yeah, there's some really great points. Um, and it's often when you see people doing an audition where it doesn't work that you realise what does work. I love this sort of opposites thing. Negative practice, one of my favourite things. We're going right back to something I said very early on, which is being yourself.

It's your story, it's your version, it's your voice, it's your take. [00:56:00] And I'm really, really hot on this because as a performer you have a history, and when you step into the room you bring your entire history with you. You may not realize that, but you do, because your history gives you a mindset, it gives you a storyline, it gives you a whole set of experiences that you have already lived and therefore embodied.

And when you're singing any song from any piece of theatre, it has to be your experience of it. And the thing really is that you, I mean, hey, you know, we haven't all killed people, but you go to a situation in your own history, in your own mind, where you have experienced something of that. I mean, if we take that specifically, some, something where you've been Blind furious, something where you have been devastated by something, something where you feel you want to kill people.

Can't believe [00:57:00] there's anybody who actually doesn't want to kill people at some point. Or maybe that's just me. No, that's, 

Oren: that's fair. 

Jeremy: So glad you agree. Um, so you find something, and this is what rehearsals are for, this is what practicing is for, and I think Oh, oh, I could go, oh, I could go to what practicing is, but maybe next time.

Um This is what practicing is for, or rehearsals are for, when you're in the, when you're in the studio and you're, you're rehearsing a musical. The whole point of rehearsing is to find out, and it's to find out how you react to that information and bring what you do, and also how other people react to your information.

Acting, in general, is a reacting, really. It's like if you've got anybody else, well, actually, you don't even need anyone else on stage. If you're singing a soliloquy, If you're singing soliloquy from Carousel, then you are still singing to somebody, and you're watching to see how they react. If it's God, fine, [00:58:00] put God there.

You know, if it's your future self, put your future self there. If it's your past self, put your past self there. We do a whole thing on timelines and characters and who you're talking to. Um, we did a course called Mastering Musical Theatre, which in fact you filmed. We did indeed. And we did a whole thing on timelines, uh, and characterization.

And I think, so if, when you're going, getting back to the question, when you're going to auditioning, the thing that you need to take into the room is your version of the song. If you don't do that, we can't see who you are, we can't see how you can fit. And I see so many people going, Idina made this noise and therefore I have to make this noise.

And I'm going, but it's not your noise. I 

Claire: think one of the things I see most frequently is the performer trying to second guess what the panel are looking for and to do that. 

Jeremy: Yes. 

Claire: And it's such a problematic strategy. Yes. Because you cannot possibly know what the Panel are looking for panel might not actually know what they're [00:59:00] looking for until they see it.

Jeremy: I've been on those panels, right? I've been on the panels where they don't know what they're looking for. Yeah Yeah And the thing is that when they don't know what they're looking for either They're completely open to what you have to give or they're warring with each other and you might not be there.

Claire: Yeah Yeah, 

Jeremy: so I've seen both. Yeah, the only 

Claire: way to take control of that situation is to know what you can bring. Yes And how and how you can bring it how you can express it 

Jeremy: and in a way That's a very brave thing to do and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna deny that because you run the risk of that the thing That is you is not going to be wanted and you also need to go into an audition knowing that The chances of you getting the job are low.

First of all, because there are a hundred thousand other people coming to audition. And secondly, because sometimes the panel doesn't know what they want. The best thing that you can do is to give the best of you. And the thing is that we [01:00:00] recognize authenticity. And authenticity has some very interesting flavors.

You know, if you, you can This is why I think the really, really good actors are so skilled. Because they find authenticity in a character that is nothing like them. Nothing at all. But because they've found some matching thing somewhere that is part of them, then it's that that comes out and you go, I appreciate that authenticity.

So yeah, that's the big one. And actually, the idea that, particularly in singing, difference between singing and speaking, by the way. Extended. Because singing is extended, with speaking you can get away with all sorts of crap. You can get away with noises, you can get away with, with, uh, stuff. But because singing is basically extended and it's all extended sound, as in, it's elongated, so anything that you do shows up more in singing than it does in speaking, which is, I [01:01:00] think, why people obsess about sound.

Because it's more obvious. But the interesting thing is, it doesn't matter that it's extended, you are still telling a story. You happen to be singing. Please, can we go to the level of acting where you happen to be singing and we don't even notice? Thank you. Right. In my head, you speak, you have a level of emotion, and there's massive levels of emotion within that.

It gets heightened when you sing. It gets more heightened when you riff. Or cadenza, in classical terms. So that, at that point, the emotion is so high that you are lost for words. And I think, as a general rule, that's quite useful. 

Claire: Yeah, I completely agree. 

Oren: A really interesting example of this. I was um, I saw Hadestown the other day.

Phenomenal, and I can't remember her surname, uh, Melanie, who's playing, um, Hermes. It is [01:02:00] one of the most encapsulating performances you could possibly see. And I've just realized now, it's just because not for a moment did I think she was singing. But she was telling the story, and she was giving me everything I wanted to pull me into this.

And essentially as the narrator of that story, that is her role. And I, and I think. If it had been any different, I would have reverted back to what I usually do and look at technique and look at all the other things, but for that moment I was so pulled in and I only just now realized it's for that reason.

Jeremy: It's almost like the voice becomes a vehicle instead of the reason for you doing it. And so we see behind, we see behind the curtain. And we experience those emotions. This is the other thing by the way, people say to people often come into sessions and say to me, but shouldn't I be feeling this while I'm singing?

And I'm going, God, no, absolutely not . Because if you are, [01:03:00] you'll wreck it for everybody else on stage. If you are, if you have to sing this thing eight shows a week for a year and two rehearsals, um, and you are feeling this thing the entire time, you're gonna wreck it for people. 'cause you're outta control.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what rehearsals are for. Yes. 

Claire: I think it's a useful process. 

Jeremy: Useful process, totally. Feel 

Claire: it, be uncomfortable, then figure out how you're going to tell that story without going to that, without going to the cliff edge yourself. 

Jeremy: And the other thing which is really important, and people forget this about the way that that musicals and plays are put together, is that you sing this heartbreaking, harrowing, angry song, and 30 seconds later it's three days later and you're having a laugh.

On stage. It's like time is compressed. What that means is that you don't have the time to decompress if you really do feel those emotions. Uh, and, and again, you're a danger to people on stage. Please don't do it. That was, 

Oren: that was great. [01:04:00] 

Claire: Wow. That said, I'm always working with performers to find their sweet spot.

Because I also don't want them to be stuck in a world of technique and You know in the the technique of how do I tell that story and want the their sweet spot to be where they can Exist in the story and enjoy telling it and find themselves there because it's why they all came to Do it in the first place they wouldn't be standing on a stage if they didn't love telling those stories with voice So there has to be Some center in the middle of that.

But yes, it's a really good 

Jeremy: point and I'm going to I'm going to agree with you People come and say I would love to sing this song, but I can't because I cry And my thing is, you need to sing it a hundred and fifty times until you stop crying. It will not stop you being able to sing the song. It will not stop you sharing that emotion.

But, you [01:05:00] need to become, I'm going to say almost immune to it, and that's a really weird word, and even desensitized is a weird word, and it's not, it's not what you're saying, but it is what you're saying. 

Claire: Yeah, it's, it, yes, it's being, it is what I'm saying, because it, being able to, Convey that and enjoy conveying it rather than going to the point of discomfort yourself.

Yes, 100%. Ask me again next week, I'll have changed my mind. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. This afternoon. Yeah. I mean, you've absolutely answered this already, but it'd be very interesting just to sort of encapsulate it. When you're coaching, how do you decide when you're going for technique and when you're going for musicality, storytelling?

I know what your answer is going to be. I love 

Jeremy: that question. Absolutely love that question because it's a decision that you make all the time. Okay. We're doing a lot of teacher training right now and we're teaching our teachers to do this. You diagnose to start with, which is what [01:06:00] exactly isn't working, what is working and what isn't working.

So if you decide what isn't working, you then decide maybe what's underlying what isn't working. And you also deal with the person in front of you. So it's like, what is your mode of communication? How do you receive instructions best? You know, do you need to do it? Do you need to understand it? Do you need to see it?

I can draw you a diagram if you want me to. It's like, however you want to, you want to do that. One of the things that I Okay. This is very difficult to explain, but actually quite easy to do. In my mind's eye I've got this knot. It's like something is happening here, and there are lots of threads that I could pull.

And what I'm going is, which is the thread that I'm going to pull that is going to undo most of the others? So, it's only based on that that I go, This is a belief issue. You have a belief about something that's standing in the way. Let's tackle that. This is a technique issue. You [01:07:00] know what you want to do, and you know how it works, but technically, this is not working for you.

And within that you go, is this a sound issue? Is it a vowel shape? Is it, is it the consonant or consonant cluster getting in the way? Uh, is the way that you're producing the sound not right for your voice? Have you been told something else that you're trying to reproduce but it doesn't work for you specifically?

There's a whole load of questions that you ask, but you ask them all silently in your head or it will be a very long lesson. Um, and then you go Let's experiment with this, because I think this is going to undo some of the stuff, so in answer to your question, it entirely depends.

I would love to be able to say, oh, it's always this. And it absolutely isn't. It's whoever and whatever and whenever. 

Claire: And in terms of your training of singing teachers as well, you know, we talked about performers needing to know [01:08:00] what their strengths were coming in. Do you think it's important for a singing teacher to know where their strength is?

Jeremy: Hugely. We actually do an entire module. On your strengths, um, and your values, and it's been a game changer for so many of our teachers, and they, I mean, they still talk about it two years later, because it's often from that session where we find what are your values, what are your strengths, where do you live.

Where don't you live? Um, and if you know where you live and what your strengths are, you know who you're going to be working with. And then you start to encourage those people to come in and your studio takes off. And you love doing what you're doing because you're working with the people that get you.

So that's actually one of the comments. Somebody said, um, I'm now working with people who get me. And I'm going, the best. The best comment. So, yeah, the values. Thing the value session is so important for [01:09:00] teachers because it's very easy to go I teach everything and I teach everyone and I teach all levels and I'm going no you don't No, you don't.

No. No, if you like you have reflections of all sorts of aspects of you But they do not cover everyone and they don't cover everything So yeah, no, thanks. Bye. 

Claire: Yeah, I'm flipping that round to the other side how Um Do you have thoughts about how a performer should choose a vocal coach? 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Claire: Or singing teacher.

Or singing teacher. 

Jeremy: Absolutely, yeah. Go and have a session. If something hasn't changed in that first session, don't go back. It's like, don't waste your time. Don't waste your time. And also, very interesting. I'm, hmm, depends on the personality of the singer. If you like being told off. Go to somebody who tells you off.

If that's your motivator, go and do it. Won't be me, but it will be somebody else. If [01:10:00] you like somebody who tells you everything is wonderful, go to them. If that's your motivator, do that. Um, in a way it's an odd question because as a singer you've got to know yourself really before you can judge whether someone else is going to work for you.

Um, there are a lot of teachers who will tell you that you're crap. And that's their way of motivating you. It has never worked for me, ever. When I was at college, I was in my second study piano lesson and I was playing this, she decided I was a virtuoso pianist and she was throwing virtuoso pieces at me and there was a Chopin study that I played, couldn't play.

And she said, there's a second study organist outside the door who can play this better than you can, and I'm thinking, well, get him in and let him do it then. And I'll go and have some tea. I didn't choose this. Yeah, that sort of motivation never works for me. Encouragement does. Accuracy does, which is interesting.[01:11:00] 

I'm very, if you can do something accurately for me, I am yours forever. Until you stop doing something accurately for me, and then I go. Um, but it's, it's really interesting. The answer, really, to the original question, ten minutes ago, is, work out what motivates you, first. And then, if you know that you need somebody very supportive, or you need somebody who will tell you off, or you need somebody who will keep your nose to the grindstone, or whatever, there's still a range of coaches within that sector that will do that.

Um, and then go and, go and experiment. And come out. Notice how you feel. Feel is, for me, the biggest measurement, if you like. If you come out and you feel smaller, don't go back. If you come out and you feel stronger, or bigger, or more relaxed, or more open, go back. Try again. [01:12:00] 

Oren: That's so valuable. Yeah. 

Claire: That 

Oren: is incredible.

Claire: It is, because I think a lot of people continue, continue with something because Because they see that that teacher has validity, and experience, and knowledge, and, and that they should, and feel that they should be getting something from it. 

Oren: Or, they feel a sense of, not duty, but a sense of, you're my teacher, I have to make this work.

But when you completely flip it back to what you were saying is introspective look at what you need Who cares about what the teacher needs that's but you know, you're paying for a service If that service 

Jeremy: isn't working for you. Oh, and by the way Remember you're paying for a service. Yes It, you know, it's like, you're paying.

If it doesn't work for you, stop paying. It's like, please, don't do that. No, it's, it's very interesting. [01:13:00] The whole business of, this, this teacher has a reputation, so therefore I must learn from them. Or, this teacher is flavour of the month, therefore I must learn, I must learn everything that they know.

There is nothing wrong, first of all, with swapping teachers. It depends where you are in your knowledge base. When you are a new ish. Singer or where you're an inexperienced singer. It can be very useful to stay with the same person so that you Learn a block of technique or you learn a block of ways of thinking about it When you're a highly experienced singer shop around because you can 

Oren: absolutely and even beyond that Don't don't just shop around when you feel like there's a problem shop around anyway because you're going to learn different things from different people and once you have All of those little pools of knowledge to draw from and bring your own conclusions.

It makes it hugely more valuable to go and get different opinions, I think, on [01:14:00] different, and you know, it might be that you're, you're working on a new musical that is of a different genre, and it's not suitable to be working with the current teacher, because that's not their speciality. I 

Claire: spent, I mean this many, many years ago, but um, my post grad singing that I tried at Trinity, um, I already knew I wanted to sing musical theatre and cabaret, and the teacher I had was wonderful.

And lovely and it wasn't her genre and for a term, we went through this incredibly painful experience where every week I'd come in and she'd say, I was trying to remember, did you want to sing for a no, no, we talked about some time and, and bless her, I've been in that position now where, you know, people are bringing me stuff that's out of my comfort zone and it's really uncomfortable.

It's, it's not a happy thing on either side of it. Of the fence. So yeah, absolutely. Take it to somebody you feel [01:15:00] brings the best out in you and and has the knowledge that you need for the genre you're 

Jeremy: in. Yeah. And none of us 

Claire: should feel, on our side of it, none of us should feel uncomfortable about. Not knowing the right answers sometimes.

Absolutely not. I think, you know, 

Jeremy: it's 

Claire: fine. 

Jeremy: This is a really interesting one. There are so many genres out there that there are going to be ones that you don't know or have no experience of. If you can understand the genre, you're more likely to be able to, or actually understand and accept, because those are two different things, um, you're more likely to be able to do something.

I have people. Interestingly, in the musical theatre world, I've worked in pretty much every genre now. So that I have experience of working in stuff. Um, in the contemporary commercial world, I don't have as much experience. But what's interesting is I have a phenomenal set of ears. And a really good analysing skill.

So I can listen to some of my favourite CCM lessons favorites are [01:16:00] when somebody brings five different recordings and go I need to sound like these five different people and I'm going let's go Because we can analyze each singer each song each genre and then put it on to you and your voice and how your voice Is going to sound not like them, but singing that genre and that material, right?

Yeah, interestingly I'm about to work with somebody who needs specifically to sound like a singer So we're doing, um, tribute band stuff, really specific. He already does two different tribute band singers. He's now going to add a third, and it's very different. So that's very specific. We analyze second by second what that person does, and then you put it on.

Really interesting. 

Claire: Yeah.

Oren: so much, Jeremy, for coming here today and sharing your story and your wisdoms and your knowledge. Before we wrap up, I just wanna, [01:17:00] I want, we need to plug some things. So, this is actually the first book of yours that I got. Right. And I distinctly remember And actually, this is probably a conversation that we'll have with Gillian.

I distinctly remember one of the first things I did with this book, and I went and pitched something to Gillian, and she was like, We would love to, but we can't. Um, Um, It was about making, like, some of the exercises and stuff, like, digital versions. Oh, absolutely, yeah. But this is a fantastic resource for, I think, People just getting into the voice, understanding it, but for teachers, for students, for performers, for anybody that wants to know more about the voice.

What else do you do? Where else can people find you on the internet? Vocal 

Jeremy: process, 

Oren: everything. 

Jeremy: Uh, Facebook vocal process, um, formerly known as Twitter vocal process. Um, uh, Instagram vocal process, uh, vocal process. co. uk. Yeah. Um, [01:18:00] we have. Well, actually, we have a load of courses online if people are interested.

The Learning Lounge 

Claire: is amazing. You're in the Learning Lounge. I'm in the Learning Lounge. Yes, in fact, 

Jeremy: you're both in the Learning Lounge. Um, the Learning Lounge has 600 plus resources, uh, going back 22 years, which is Just and it was interesting. It's just we we decided just to put our stuff all of it out there So we have mini courses webinars full courses Song databases done for you lesson plans the old CDs In fact one that's been out of print for about 10 years is now on the learning lounge and we're still adding to it So we still we just started doing live Q& A as well They're all going on, um, learning lounge.

Um, it's actually, that's all listed on the vocal process. co. uk website. Uh, we also do teacher training. Um, so we have the teacher pathway now, which is three online courses plus the accreditation program. And the online [01:19:00] courses were solely, uh, in your own time, you know, you have access for a year. It's all online.

We've now started doing live stuff in there as well. So we're doing flipped classroom for the first time. We actually did the first one. And the accreditation program is a much longer program, and we're now on cohort 25. Four, we're just about to, to start with. So that, and that's fantastic. That one is, basically you see us every two weeks for at least a year.

And with all the support and all the discussions and everybody gets together in groups, it's all live. So that's an amazing one. So yeah. And of course the books. The books. All of the books. Uh, twelve, eleven. I'm about to write the twelfth. 

Claire: Oh, amazing. Very nice. Are we allowed to know what that one's about?

Jeremy: You are. You're going to laugh. How to be a great podcast guest.

I need it. 

Claire: Are you following your own rules? 

Jeremy: I'm, I'm hoping I don't break them. Otherwise [01:20:00] it's not going to sell very much. 

Claire: Is that from a voice perspective? 

Jeremy: It is. Yeah. Great. It's, well, it's both. It's, it's very interesting because I'm, I'm working at the moment with a, uh, a mastermind group who are all business people.

So nothing to do with voice at all, and it's, um, I, we came up with this idea to put a course together, and it is, a half of the book is how to make sure that what you, what you say is clear, is, has stories in it, it's basically taking, and a lot of the people that I'm working with have written books, so it's how you transfer book knowledge into conversational knowledge.

Uh, or they've written courses or whatever. And half of it is about voice, which is basically, I'm desperate to call a title, How Boring Are You? I love it. But I don't think I'm going to get away with 

Oren: that. 

Claire: How fabulous, can't wait. 

Oren: Very cool. I have to say, the Learning Lounge, in particular, is one of the greatest [01:21:00] repositories of knowledge for singing and for performance.

In existence. Thank you. And it 

Claire: completely flies in the face of what Oren and I have talked about before. The kind of gatekeeping of information. It's just here, here it is, come get it. And actually, because 

Jeremy: there's so much in it. If you want any help going through it, drop us an email. Not a problem. Or message us.

And we'll say, what do you want to know? I love 

Oren: it. We have two Two little traditions on this podcast. Do you want to take the first one? 

Claire: Sure, except that, well, Well, it might not apply. We'll see. It does apply. What do you do at the five minute call? 

Jeremy: Yes, it does apply. Because I still perform. At the five minute call, I normally, well it depends what job I'm doing, If I'm MDing, I'm already in the pit.

I am already sorting stuff out on conversations and on cams and, and all of that stuff. If I'm [01:22:00] playing, um, I will probably go quiet, because the whole day for me is a build of energy. I'm one of these people who really can't do anything the same day. She's awful. What a burden. So, yeah, I'll be building energy, and I'm actually fine having conversations and doing stuff, and then about five minutes before, I will go quiet.

And that's when the energy really peaks, really builds. By the way, I think it's webinar six, we do that. I do, Gillian and I do our own charts about energy build, and they do not match at all. Took us years to find that out. 

Claire: I'm really personally fascinated in this. In that quiet moment, are you comfortable?

Because I would agree. I also have a quite I'm applying mind coaching, but I'm often quite uncomfortable in that 

Oren: I'm uncomfortable. 

Jeremy: I, yes, I want to start. It's very interesting, if you've been an anxious person for some of your [01:23:00] life, you, you, you know you've got this thing coming up and you want it to start, because I now know from experience, when we start, I might have, oh by the way, my new rule.

Well, it's an old rule, actually. I can be crap for ten minutes. It's so, so useful. Because if you've got an hour, or if you've got an hour and a half, or, I mean, if you've got ten minutes, you're, it's a problem. But if you've got an hour and a half to play with, you can be, genuinely, you can be crap for ten minutes.

Preferably at the beginning. Because people go, hmm, a bit uncomfortable here, and then you get into it, and then by the end of it, they love you. Being crap at ten minutes at the end is not a good idea, because that's what they remember, but it also it gives you an out It gives you an out to be it's it's it doesn't have to be perfect It doesn't have to be professional all of that stuff.

Yeah, so yeah, I'm uncomfortable. I just want it to start 

Claire: And 

Oren: tradition on [01:24:00] this podcast we get the previous guest to write a question And it is sight unseen for everybody in this room until the moment that we read it. And we're going to read the question, get you to answer the question, and then write a new question for the next guest.

So 

Claire: Do you think having a job of passion makes your work your number one priority? 

Jeremy: It doesn't even occur to me that it's a priority. It just is. Um, I'm actually working harder at the moment not to, so that I have a life as well. One thing we haven't mentioned, by the way, and this is an answer. As a professional pianist, I snapped a tendon in my finger, twice, two different fingers.

End of career. And I had to look at this, which is, if I can't now play the piano, which is what I love doing, that's the end of my job. So, who am I? What is my life? And I actually set out to have a life, which was quite interesting. And then it [01:25:00] healed, and I'm playing again. So, both times. So, um, yes.

Absolutely. And no. Great question. It 

Claire: is a great question. It is. Yeah. There's such an inevitability to it, isn't there? When it's the thing that you do, when it's just This is just what I do. It's not a question. It isn't a, shall I make it a priority? Shall I choose this? It's just what I do. I know so many performers like that.

Jeremy: Since I was six, I've been going to be a professional musician and I have been a professional musician in one way or another for 56 years.

Claire: Jeremy, thank you so much for being on the podcast, we loved having you and we may have 

Oren: you back. Oh, we are 

Claire: absolutely going to have to have 

Jeremy: you back. Oh no, I'll have to live more life now. Yes, yes. Please 

Oren: go away and do some more amazing things, and then come back and talk about it.[01:26:00] 

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Claire: If you are or have been affected by any of the topics discussed in today's episode, please see the show notes below for some helpful resources.